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The others won many, many races but only produced their very best now and again.
What do you mean by now and again?
Dubai Millennium won 9 out of 10 and only failed at Epsom, where Frankel never went to.
Enable should still be unbeaten, except for that third place at Newbury when ridden by an apprentice.Arrrrrrrgh! Just lost a long post/explanation.
Dubai Millenium did win 9 out of 10, ex-Ruby; but did not run to his 140 Timeform rating many times.
The best horses are so much better than those they race against, therefore they can produce winning sequences in Group 1 races without being anywhere near their best.Dubai Millennium was rated 140, Enable 134 (adding her fillies allowance is equivelent to a colt’s 137). It is rare for (can go a decade without) a 140+ Group 1 rating; a 139 to 135 is highly unusual, a 134 to 130 unusual. Group 1 races are usually won by horses producing Timeform ratings of middle to high 120’s. eg Too Darn Hot’s best is 127, Lord Glitters 123, Anthony Van Dyck 125. So Dubai Millenium could run 12 lbs below his best and still beat horses of their merit. Enable could run 9 lbs below her very best and beat the likes of TDH, LG and AVD.
However, in four victories since the 2017 Arc, Enable has been below that level without appearing to have the amount she’d need to be still a 134/137. Timeform rate horses on what they believe it is capable of next time given optimum conditions. Therefore they’ve reduced Enable’s rating from 134/137 to 129 (colts equivelent 132). A reminder, 132 is still enough to win the vast majority of Group 1 races.
Frankel didn’t just produce the best ever Timeform Rating of 147, he achieved over twice the number of 140+ performances of any other racehorse. Not only the best but also ultra-consistent
Value Is EverythingTo go back to the original post, I think that Enable would beat Winx , but not as easily as many would imagine.
Don’t understand the opinion that greatness is in some way judged by ability to win around differing courses with tight bends. That just shows versatility , not greatness. Otherwise the ability to win around a dog track like Chester would be of paramount importance.
It’s always difficult comparing different horses who could never have met. These 2 really good mares are not in the same class as Frankel, and nor would they have troubled the Brigadier (ability wise, they were simply different class)We will never know the answer given that Winx is now retired.
John Gosden was asked the same question at the end of 2018 – who would win if they raced against one another .
Gosden replied that he thought Winx would win over a mile and a quarter on good to firm as ” she has more speed “, but said he would fancy his chances of Enable winning if they were to meet over a mile and a half on soft ground .
Me ? I think at 10-12 furlongs , on any ground , Enable would triumph .
Gambling Only Pays When You're Winning
Enable was quite generous today, raced back towards the back and was ridden only hands and heels inside the final two furlongs. There isn’t much more you could ask from her. What price is she for the Arc? 2/5 or 1/2
The greatest and most accomplished horse…. ever.
Because she put up another sub 130 performance over optimum conditions?
ridden only hands and heels inside the final two furlongs.
Less due to ease and more likely because she wouldn’t have responded to further strikes. She was still running at full stride.
There isn’t much more you could ask from her.
To be considered both a champion and a great then no. She is the best of the current bunch. However, she has to put up better performances from a form perspective to be considered an all time great. From neither her Eclipse run nor through Crystal Ocean and Waldgeist is there any reason to suggest she has improved from four to five.
What price is she for the Arc? 2/5 or 1/2
I would very happily be a layer at those prices.
Again, she is a wonderful horse who should be appreciated for what she is but I would sooner keep her accomplishments in perspective.
Enable was quite generous today, raced back towards the back and was ridden only hands and heels inside the final two furlongs. There isn’t much more you could ask from her. What price is she for the Arc? 2/5 or 1/2
Eh?
If Enable is 2/5, what price would the neck inferior Crystal Ocean be?
Good post BH.
Value Is EverythingThe greatest and most accomplished horse…. ever.
Crystal Ocean must be almost the greatest, then.
Stop _hitting on those who’ve actually accomplished greatness.
Value Is EverythingAre you claiming that enable hasnt achieved greatness ginge? With the achievements shes already accomplished? Enable is better than a neck second ginge anyone who knows anything about the race today could see that, one tap also and hands and heels in the finish, looked closer than it was from a far from ideal trip round
So who would fal into the bracket lf achieving greatness if not enable then? There isnt another horse whos won anywhere close to the 9 group 1s shes won… so tell me…. stop arguing against greatness because you think you alone know what that entails. Were all entitled to our own version of that.
“There isnt another horse whos won anywhere close to the 9 group 1s shes won…”
Erm… Maybe you should learn a little racing history before posting utter drivel like this.
Drivel
I generally type quite loosely on the forum now without any regard for sounding like im not well in the know of racing in general i fail to see your point here
You and anyone can compare enable to frankel, ok, fantastic, he achieved a better or, probably beat better horses generally (although CO is rated superior to the likes of farhh nathanial and cirrus des aigles.
ulysses and highland reel are two others who were in the upper echelon of the ratings that she mopped the floor with)the problem is recently she seems to have wisened to the game and just does enough, much like altior over a fence. But ultimately, won on more tracks, won on more continents, won more money and won the FAR more prestigious races, so thats down to opinion whos better, enable for me but thats my personal view and anyone who said frankel certainly wouldnt be wrong.If your comparing her to the likes of horses lets say, pre 1990 (rough estimate) you need your head checked (which is what im assuming your doing galdiateur with the likes of dahlia) much like human sporting events, in this day and age the general fitness of the horses is vastly superior because the abundance of facilities that MOST yards now have use of, especially in the flat game, it makes a huge huge difference, not to mention feed quality, medication quality and general welfare quality has vastly improved since that time, technology advances, as does anyone or anything with use of said technology, thats a fact that cannot be denied, therefor the general quality and fitness in this days racing is collectively extremely further forward, so what shes doing now is even more impressive than it would have been for a horse in the pre 1990 era (estimate). This also applies to frankel and rightly so, So again if your comparing it to this era, then the drivel your believing is incomprehensible not to mention the handicapping system then was as flawed as the 2018 russian olympic team….. this part of my post is largely not thought of by many of the old timers of the game and they couldn’t be more wrong for not taking it in. They would happily believe it true with other sports.
But most importantly i am extremely interested to find out what other horse in There first 13 races has won better than 2 x king george, 2 x arc de triomph , a breeders cup turf in the same season and an eclipse (forget the oaks and the yorkshire oaks for talking sake)
Again, ill never slander your opinion much like you or ginge are trying to dowith mine, but i dont see a real arguement against this no ones really came up with anything bar kev saying STS 3yo campaign was extraordinary and
Up there for him (which it absolutely was), some people just know it all i suppose and hate for anyone else to have a valid opinion…. a very valid opinion.stop arguing against greatness because you think you alone know what that entails. Were all entitled to our own version of that.
Of all the runners in today’s King George, I think Cheval Grand was the greatest horse who lined up. Greater even than Enable. Cheval Grand has greater longevity, running for two years longer than Enable. This is even more impressive when you consider that when Cheval Grand was a 2yo, he won over £105,000 in prize money (this is using a conservative conversion rate from late 2014 – the amount would exceed £135,000 at today’s rate!). By contrast, Enable earned a measly £2,911.05p as a juvenile. Cheval Grand has won over a greater range of distances than Enable, winning races up to a whopping mile and seven and has twice been runner up at two miles! Grand Cheval also has Enable’s measure when it comes to seasonal range having been placed during winter, spring, summer and autumn. Enable may as well be a hedgehog the way she hibernates! Cheval Grand is much more culturally accommodating when it comes to jockeys having won races under Asian (Fukunaga), Australasian (Bowman) and European (Lemaire) pilots. On the other hand, Enable has only shown she can run under white European jockeys which in 2019 isn’t particularly woke. Cheval Grand has also won on firm ground which Enable has been unable to do in thirteen starts. Cheval Grand has raced in the Far East as well as the Middle East and has travelled much further south…
I could continue for a long time but it would be belabouring the point. Cheval Grand is greater than Enable and I am perfectly entitled to this based on the multitude of metrics I have presented above.
In case you haven’t noticed, I’m being facetious. There is one objective metric which can determine the greater racehorse and that is which horse would win in a race. There are as many sentimental measures of greatness as you like and in that regard, you’re allowed to use them as you please. But objectively, the horse who runs faster than its rival in a given contest is the better horse. It is the entire purpose and essence of our sport. Today, we saw that Enable is greater than Cheval Grand. We all knew this beforehand as demonstrated by their respective starting prices. Through the scientific methods of empirical observation, theoretical analysis, statistical inference and so forth, we were able to determine that Enable was a superior racehorse to Cheval Grand. In keeping with this process, it has been repeatedly demonstrated that if Frankel and Enable were to compete in a theoretical race, all available evidence overwhelmingly suggests that Frankel would be able to beat Enable.
Sentimentally, you are allowed to say that any horse is better than Frankel. However, objectively you would struggle to make a strong case for Enable being the superior horse.
It most certainly does lean towards frankel beating her bachelors, its a more than valid point filled with utter useless rubbish because your so intent on believing your opinion to be correct but that aside over 1m4 shed win and over 1m2 Hed win, on all known overwhelming evidence that is (as you put it), frankel would not have won the arc in his 3yo year lr his 4yo year…. so come at it again…
Frankel is the better racehorse. He can run to higher levels consistently. Fact. BTW,i haven’t pre-read this before commenting so it may have been said before!
Throwing distances in is to me, a bit daft. Big Orange would beat Blue Point over 2 miles. So what? Who’s the better racehorse?
Twitter: Jackh1092
Hindsight is 20/20 so make the most of it!“Again, ill never slander your opinion much like you or ginge are trying to dowith mine…”
It’s not a question of personally attacking you; your statement was factually incorrect.
Many horses have won more Group One races than Enable; to name but three, Winx won 25, Frankel ten and Goldikova fourteen.
The greatest and most accomplished horse…. ever.
Crystal Ocean must be almost the greatest, then.
Stop _hitting on those who’ve actually accomplished greatness.
Zoffany must be the greatest too eh Ginge….
If winning what Enable has is not greatness…. WOW
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