Enable v Winx 1m2f.

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This topic contains 65 replies, has 17 voices, and was last updated by Gingertipster Gingertipster 1 month, 2 weeks ago.

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  • #1448040
    Gingertipster
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    Timeform reduce Enable’s rating by 5 lbs because she is thought no longer capable of her three year old Arc form.

    https://www.timeform.com/horse-racing/features/ratings-update/ratings-update-enable-back-with-a-bang-872019

    value is everything
    #1448042
    Gingertipster
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    I’d take the 7/4 Frankel. Not only was he the best racehorse, but also the most consistent. ie The others won many, many races but only produced their very best now and again. Frankel has a lot more 140+ performances than any of them. I’d also have a saver on Dubai Millenium @ 4/1 just in case he was allowed a soft lead. ;-)

    value is everything
    #1448051
    Gingertipster
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    12F premium Group 1s are more prestigious than mile Group 1s. It’s why the Derby & the Arc are the greatest races in the world, and why the true thoroughbreds that thrive at stud are those who have passed the test of at least the first of those

    Sadlers Wells?
    Northern Dancer?

    I agree Derby and Arc are the most prestigious races, Kev; if judged only by the average Derby/Arc against the average other race. But when we’re talking/writing about individual horses/performances, prestigious races don’t come in to it. ie Derby and Arc are only the most prestigious because they produce Champions more often than any other race. Winning any individual Derby or Arc does not make the individual Derby/Arc more prestigious than any other race. Does Anthony Van Dyck’s Derby give him more Prestige than Frankel’s magnificent 2000 Guineas or Sussex?

    A horse putting up a vastly superior performance in a different race receives more prestige than Enable’s good Arcs. In reality, Timeform 140+ performances only happen once in a while even in an Arc or Derby. Ribot, Mill Reef, Dancing Brave in the Arc; Sea Bird, Shergar in the Derby. :rose:

    value is everything
    #1448053
    KevMc
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    You’ve taken the two biggest freaks to ever exist in the thoroughbred as examples, they are the exception to the rule in many many cases of breeding :good:

    Sadlers Wells would’ve ran in the Derby but they had El Gran Senor anyway so didn’t go. Northern Dancer being a dirt horse would’ve done well to have the chance to contest Epsom.

    I suppose there is a few exceptions, Kingman looks to be one & Cape Cross definitely was. But this is a whole different subject so i won’t go on.

    The variance of courses and demands is something i rate higher than you, we can leave it at that.

    #1448059
    Ex RubyLight
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    The others won many, many races but only produced their very best now and again.

    What do you mean by now and again?

    Dubai Millennium won 9 out of 10 and only failed at Epsom, where Frankel never went to.
    Enable should still be unbeaten, except for that third place at Newbury when ridden by an apprentice.

    #1448081
    Gingertipster
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    Arrrrrrrgh! Just lost a long post/explanation.

    Dubai Millenium did win 9 out of 10, ex-Ruby; but did not run to his 140 Timeform rating many times.
    The best horses are so much better than those they race against, therefore they can produce winning sequences in Group 1 races without being anywhere near their best.

    Dubai Millennium was rated 140, Enable 134 (adding her fillies allowance is equivelent to a colt’s 137). It is rare for (can go a decade without) a 140+ Group 1 rating; a 139 to 135 is highly unusual, a 134 to 130 unusual. Group 1 races are usually won by horses producing Timeform ratings of middle to high 120’s. eg Too Darn Hot’s best is 127, Lord Glitters 123, Anthony Van Dyck 125. So Dubai Millenium could run 12 lbs below his best and still beat horses of their merit. Enable could run 9 lbs below her very best and beat the likes of TDH, LG and AVD.

    However, in four victories since the 2017 Arc, Enable has been below that level without appearing to have the amount she’d need to be still a 134/137. Timeform rate horses on what they believe it is capable of next time given optimum conditions. Therefore they’ve reduced Enable’s rating from 134/137 to 129 (colts equivelent 132). A reminder, 132 is still enough to win the vast majority of Group 1 races.

    Frankel didn’t just produce the best ever Timeform Rating of 147, he achieved over twice the number of 140+ performances of any other racehorse. Not only the best but also ultra-consistent

    value is everything
    #1448085

    Coggy
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    To go back to the original post, I think that Enable would beat Winx , but not as easily as many would imagine.
    Don’t understand the opinion that greatness is in some way judged by ability to win around differing courses with tight bends. That just shows versatility , not greatness. Otherwise the ability to win around a dog track like Chester would be of paramount importance.
    It’s always difficult comparing different horses who could never have met. These 2 really good mares are not in the same class as Frankel, and nor would they have troubled the Brigadier (ability wise, they were simply different class)

    #1448113
    Himself
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    We will never know the answer given that Winx is now retired.

    John Gosden was asked the same question at the end of 2018 – who would win if they raced against one another .

    Gosden replied that he thought Winx would win over a mile and a quarter on good to firm as ” she has more speed “, but said he would fancy his chances of Enable winning if they were to meet over a mile and a half on soft ground .

    Me ? I think at 10-12 furlongs , on any ground , Enable would triumph .

    Gambling Only Pays When You're Winning

    #1449505
    Ex RubyLight
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    Enable was quite generous today, raced back towards the back and was ridden only hands and heels inside the final two furlongs. There isn’t much more you could ask from her. What price is she for the Arc? 2/5 or 1/2

    #1449515

    ham
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    The greatest and most accomplished horse…. ever.

    #1449532
    Bachelors Hall
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    The greatest and most accomplished horse…. ever.

    Because she put up another sub 130 performance over optimum conditions?

    ridden only hands and heels inside the final two furlongs.

    Less due to ease and more likely because she wouldn’t have responded to further strikes. She was still running at full stride.

    There isn’t much more you could ask from her.

    To be considered both a champion and a great then no. She is the best of the current bunch. However, she has to put up better performances from a form perspective to be considered an all time great. From neither her Eclipse run nor through Crystal Ocean and Waldgeist is there any reason to suggest she has improved from four to five.

    What price is she for the Arc? 2/5 or 1/2

    I would very happily be a layer at those prices.

    Again, she is a wonderful horse who should be appreciated for what she is but I would sooner keep her accomplishments in perspective.

    #1449534
    Gingertipster
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    Enable was quite generous today, raced back towards the back and was ridden only hands and heels inside the final two furlongs. There isn’t much more you could ask from her. What price is she for the Arc? 2/5 or 1/2

    Eh? :unsure:

    If Enable is 2/5, what price would the neck inferior Crystal Ocean be?

    Good post BH. :good:

    value is everything
    #1449535
    Gingertipster
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    The greatest and most accomplished horse…. ever.

    Crystal Ocean must be almost the greatest, then. :wacko:

    Stop _hitting on those who’ve actually accomplished greatness.

    value is everything
    #1449541

    ham
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    Are you claiming that enable hasnt achieved greatness ginge? With the achievements shes already accomplished? Enable is better than a neck second ginge anyone who knows anything about the race today could see that, one tap also and hands and heels in the finish, looked closer than it was from a far from ideal trip round

    So who would fal into the bracket lf achieving greatness if not enable then? There isnt another horse whos won anywhere close to the 9 group 1s shes won… so tell me…. stop arguing against greatness because you think you alone know what that entails. Were all entitled to our own version of that.

    #1449542
    Gladiateur
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    “There isnt another horse whos won anywhere close to the 9 group 1s shes won…”

    Erm… Maybe you should learn a little racing history before posting utter drivel like this.

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