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Dahlia, If you want to tell me that Brigadier Gerard is the best post-war horse of the 21st century then I can accept that. It’s always a bit tricky comparing horses between generations due to training and breeding. Eclipse was the greatest of all time at one stage but he walked to all of his races and was more closely related to a cart horse than a thoroughbred. Naturally, I have to take Frankel over BG but I’m sure that if I’m still around in forty years, I’ll argue until I’m blue in the face with the whippersnapper who dares to tell me that Frankel was inferior to his hotshot great great grandson…
I do have to take issue with putting Enable and Winx against Frankel and the Brig as I would offer any price on either of the mares beating those exceptional colts.
You keep telling us about her first twelve race without explaining how they were superior to Frankel’s first twelve races.
In Frankel’s first twelve races, he was undefeated, won eight Group One’s, took on all ages straight after Ascot, went off favourite on all starts, annihilated champions and would-have-been champions, took in no filler races…
Are you sure you’re not mistaking Frankel for another horse?
What is the furthest distance Frankel had to travel in his life? I assume from Newmarket to York.
Enable went to the Curragh, Chantilly, Longchamp, Churchill Downs and even handled Epsom to win a Group 1 and was also victorious in a Kempton Grade 3 event on the all-weather when beating a genuine Group 1 performer.
So, if you look back at her first 12 runs, you have to admit that those feats are very difficult to eclipse.Winning abroad isn’t in and of itself a reliable indicator of merit. Laudable, yes, but many horses have won in France and America without being outstanding animals. Furthermore, it suggests that Frankel may have struggled in a Breeders Cup or Jacques Le Marois which is utterly baseless.
If the fact that he didn’t go through the rigmarole of travel and drug abuse is the only case against Frankel then I struggle to find it particularly persuasive.
Going back to my hypothetical race of all time (Brigadier Gerard v Enable v Frankel v Winx over 1m2f) I suppose a lot might depend on the time of year it was run as per colts v fillies. Fillies rarely run in, never mind win the 2000 or Derby in May/June. However the Arc in Oct is frequently won by them (6 of the last 10)and not forgetting the Leger, so it’s likely the boys would win early in the season and the girls would have a better chance in the Autumn.
Blasphemy that the great Sea The Stars has yet to be mentioned in any of this yet
Personally, i agree with Ham in terms of the CV that Enable has put together. She’s NEVER raced on the same course to date, won Group 1 after Group 1 with only one blemish (which was when Buick gave her one of his ‘best’ to get her beat when SS had been punted off the boards).
Frankel is undoubtedly the most talented horse to grace the turf probably since existence (My grandfather claims Dancing Brave FWIW). But as has been said time and time again you can measure the brilliance of a horse by much more than OR or lengths beat. That is when personal preference comes into this.
STS is my favourite ever flat horse, and his 3YO career is unrivalled. But Enable is starting to get close.
If she can go unbeaten this season taking in the KG, Juddmonte & Arc she may just be the most glittered horse to ever race?You keep telling us about her first twelve race without explaining how they were superior to Frankel’s first twelve races.
In Frankel’s first twelve races, he was undefeated, won eight Group One’s, took on all ages straight after Ascot, went off favourite on all starts, annihilated champions and would-have-been champions, took in no filler races…
Are you sure you’re not mistaking Frankel for another horse?
2 arcs (and a breeders cup turf double) alone is more prestige than all of frankels combined, if enable where a colt, this conversation would be about the greatest horse alive, his stallion fee would be “private” for his lifetime and access would only come if the mare had won multiple group 1s LOL, But shes a mare, as with all sports, it becomes slightly overlooked. Her achievements to date are nigh on impossible to EVER be done again.
And if you think travelling isnt important you should reassess, frankel would be held in an even higher regard had he jumped
On a plane, his stallion fee and appeal would have been even more incredible than currently is. Travel. Is. Important.Yeah sea the stars is up there for me also kev and i agree regarding the rest of the season if she somehow does what you said and wins those 3, would never happen again. But she doesnt need to for me personally.
But again bachelors im not even arguing that frankel isnt the greatest in your opinion, would be foolish too, he was phenominal,would probably have did abroad what he did here and would have probably done it all again as a 5yo
But those are probables, enables are facts.
A horse puts up VASTLY inferior performances to win in Ireland, France and USA… and that makes her better.
So if a horse wins conditions races (not even to Group 3 level) in Ireland, France and USA, does that make him better than Frankel too?
Many horses over the years have proved capable of reproducing their form in many different countries.
Only one horse has ever put up performances of Frankel’s class and that’s Frankel. In ability terms Enable is more than a stone inferior to Frankel. How can she be better?Value Is Everything2 arcs (and a breeders cup turf double) alone is more prestige than all of frankels combined,
No. Maybe someone with an incredibly enormous bias for mile and a half horses might think such a thing. How can winning races by putting up VASTLY inferior performances be more prestige? Enable’s performances in those races are over a stone worse than Frankel’s. There’d be no way anyone within racing would judge them as having more prestige than Frankel.
Value Is EverythingFrankel loved to run over a straight mile and was never asked to handle tight bends. Which means losing momentum, getting boxed in and having to wait before being able to accelerate again. The two Goodwood wins (Sussex Stakes) were just matches against one half decent opponent, the rest of the opposition was simply worthless in those races. Then the Juddmonte win at York, which was highly impressive, but once again it was a track with a very very long straight and the one bend he had to run through is a very easy one.
I’m not taking anything away from him, but to handle Epsom, the Curragh, both Paris tracks and Churchill Downs plus Sundown Park….. That’s quite a feat and sincerely I don’t think Frankel would have left those tracks unbeaten. Never….
Hi Dahlia – I’ve done a little research into the time of year thing and while there may be some trends, I don’t think it’s as clear cut as you think. Since 2012, the strike rate of fillies and mares in mixed-gender races improves steadily from March (8.1%) up to August (10.6%) but then hits a sharp decline in September (8.4%) and October (8.0%). This pattern is also replicated when looking at place strike rates as well as taking three-year-olds in isolation. The figures are a little more erratic when concentrating on pattern races (naturally a smaller sample) since while July still boasts the highest strike rate and August comes second, August is matched by April and the pair are followed by October. So while there are certain statistical patterns, it doesn’t exactly follow your theory. Plus your theory wouldn’t account for the fine record of mares in the Lockinge Stakes (four winners from the last fifteen runners – 26.7%). That said, I wonder if the topsy turvy seasons played a role in Black Caviar underperforming at Ascot.
Hi Ham – I’m starting to wonder if this is a rhetorical exercise on your part. As Ginger has said, none of her wins in the Arcs or the Breeders Cup has even reached Frankel’s peak performances. If, in those races, she defeated established champions and unexposed contenders in emphatic style then maybe we can talk. However, in her first Arc she was driven out to beat the 20/1 Cloth Of Stars whose best win was a narrow one in a Prix Ganay, Ulysses who was good but no champion and next behind was the stayer Order Of St George. In last year’s Arc, she was all out from a favourable draw to put no more than five lengths between her and her next eight rivals. In the Breeders Cup Turf, none of the American horses were much cop and again, was pressed all the way by Magical despite being the much fresher horse.
Enable’s gender is irrelevant since Black Caviar is regarded by Timeform (and myself) to be the best sprinter of the twenty-first century. Also, it’s as absurd to suggest that Frankel’s achievements would have been even greater if he jumped a hurdle as it is to say that Istabraq is the greatest hurdler of the past forty years because he won a class four flat handicap at Ayr.
If you can empirically demonstrate that Enable has achieved higher levels of form, if you can categorically show that Enable would have beaten Frankel over ten furlongs then your flimsy opinion can become a fact. Until then, you are grasping at irrelevant variables against the most reliable of metrics in time and collateral form. Enable is a great horse. She may even be your new favourite of all time and that is fantastic. But as much as we perpetually wish to bear witness to the phenomenal, that is not possible which is why superlatives should be reserved for only the exceptional. (Unless you’re AOB promoting the latest superstar stallion prospect).
Hi Ruby
I think there’s a feasible (rather than reasonable) case for suggesting that Frankel may have ran below his best as a buzzy young three year old around somewhere like Chester, and indeed Dubai Millennium didn’t fare well at Epsom, but there was nothing in his later races to suggest that his temperament or confirmation were even remotely suspect.
Nobody asked but if there was a hypothetical International Stakes using the horses submitted by posters in this thread, top of my head, I’d probably price it up at;-
Frankel 7/4
Brigadier Gerard 9/4
Dubai Millenium 4/1
Sea The Stars 9/1
Enable 50/1
Winx 80/1I will agree with the great Lester,he said the best horse he ever seen was Sea Bird,good enough for me,and Bachelors Hall I will take that 9/4 the Brigadier.
I’ll take the 7/4 Frankel & still argue that he was never tested in the same way that Enable & STS has been.
This is basically the football phrase that get’s rolled out in jest all the time –
‘But could be do it on a cold tuesday night at Stoke’. But replace Stoke for Epsom, France or America
12F premium Group 1s are more prestigious than mile Group 1s. It’s why the Derby & the Arc are the greatest races in the world, and why the true thoroughbreds that thrive at stud are those who have passed the test of at least the first of those
Timeform reduce Enable’s rating by 5 lbs because she is thought no longer capable of her three year old Arc form.
Value Is EverythingI’d take the 7/4 Frankel. Not only was he the best racehorse, but also the most consistent. ie The others won many, many races but only produced their very best now and again. Frankel has a lot more 140+ performances than any of them. I’d also have a saver on Dubai Millenium @ 4/1 just in case he was allowed a soft lead.
Value Is Everything12F premium Group 1s are more prestigious than mile Group 1s. It’s why the Derby & the Arc are the greatest races in the world, and why the true thoroughbreds that thrive at stud are those who have passed the test of at least the first of those
Sadlers Wells?
Northern Dancer?I agree Derby and Arc are the most prestigious races, Kev; if judged only by the average Derby/Arc against the average other race. But when we’re talking/writing about individual horses/performances, prestigious races don’t come in to it. ie Derby and Arc are only the most prestigious because they produce Champions more often than any other race. Winning any individual Derby or Arc does not make the individual Derby/Arc more prestigious than any other race. Does Anthony Van Dyck’s Derby give him more Prestige than Frankel’s magnificent 2000 Guineas or Sussex?
A horse putting up a vastly superior performance in a different race receives more prestige than Enable’s good Arcs. In reality, Timeform 140+ performances only happen once in a while even in an Arc or Derby. Ribot, Mill Reef, Dancing Brave in the Arc; Sea Bird, Shergar in the Derby.
Value Is EverythingYou’ve taken the two biggest freaks to ever exist in the thoroughbred as examples, they are the exception to the rule in many many cases of breeding
Sadlers Wells would’ve ran in the Derby but they had El Gran Senor anyway so didn’t go. Northern Dancer being a dirt horse would’ve done well to have the chance to contest Epsom.
I suppose there is a few exceptions, Kingman looks to be one & Cape Cross definitely was. But this is a whole different subject so i won’t go on.
The variance of courses and demands is something i rate higher than you, we can leave it at that.
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