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What could he have done differently? Obviously in hindsight you would try something different but would it have made any difference? Looked like he didn’t stay to me.
I thought at the time he had given him a good ride.Trying to nurse a possible non stayer home.He was so impressive in the 2000 that I am sure he was an 8 to 10 furlong horse. After Epsom I did not think he was ever going to run at the Curragh although the stable said he would.
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To me el gran señor is the best miler I’ve seen in my lifetime but unfortunately vincent Obrien wanted him to win a grp 1 over 12f as at that time winning the Derby would have added a few zeros onto his value at stud. Had he been kept to a mile and then 10f in his 4yr old career would be talking an all time great. His 1984 guineas win from chief singer(wide margin winner of the St James palace next start and brilliant winner of the July cup) and in 4th was a future arc winner. I think he was just outstayed by secreto which ,like Matt chapman,I just couldn’t believe.
Secreto was my first ever Derby winner and I well remember the race and I do believe Eddery given the race again would have won, he was a shade late going for it.
£5 E/W @ 14/1, oh for those days again when I occasionally won money.
I vehemently disagree with all those who maintain that El Gran Senor did not stay a mile
and a half. Pat Eddery himself said that in retrospect he would have ridden El Gran Senor differently. He said he went too early , even although the horse was cruising. I did my brains on that ’84 Derby , after having had the biggest bet ever on the EGS in the Guineas. I had backed the colt all during the winter – my confidence backed up by the great pro punter, Alex Bird, who would not hear of defeat for the horse in both Dewhurst and Guineas. Like him, I thought the horse was an absolute certainty for the Derby.
He was beaten by his Vincent O’Brien’s son David’s Secreto , who had previously won the Irish 2,OOO gns. Secreto
never ran again – off to stud he went , and David O’Brien soon followed. El Gran Senor then won the Irish Derby
in no more than a hack canter , beating his old foe , and subsequent Arc winner, Rainbow Quest yet again.Gambling Only Pays When You're Winning
No, I don’t think he did – El Gran Señor was nursed to get the trip but didn’t stay. If he had made more use of him he would have been beaten farther and if he’d made even less he still wouldn’t have got home.
But then I am very forgiving – I am one of the few who sympathised with Greville Starkey over Dancing Brave….he not unreasonably held up a son of Lyphard who then didn’t come down the hill in a moderately run race and had to go round the outside of the entire field turning for home.
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It's the "Millwall FC" of Point broadcasts: "No One Likes Us - We Don't Care"Agree with Blue – should have went for home slightly earlier, it takes a super-horse to just switch it on, they almost all need some ‘stoking’ time. But I see Ian’s point too, might’ve got him beat further. You have to ride them as if they stay though, I’d say, as far as the Derby is concerned. Has a Derby winner ever won it after being nursed round in the manner Eddery attempted?
I think Sir Ivor was nursed like a non-stayer and then delivered late and fast to win it.
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It's the "Millwall FC" of Point broadcasts: "No One Likes Us - We Don't Care"On reflection he didn’t stay, if he had of done he would have surely won after going half a length up on Secreto when the chips were down.
Did Hawk Wing stay? Without a stable companion he would have won the race by 12 lengths.That’s not to say El Gran Senor wouldn’t have won if his challenge had been delayed longer, he found himself in front when the pace collapsed but throughout the race he looked too near the front for me, as if they surprisingly lacked confidence and didn’t want to take the chance of getting too far behind and maybe suffering interference.
Hawk wing was just very unlucky to come up against high chapparal otherwise,as you said,he would have won by twelve lengths and been hailed as a derby great. He probably did just about stay 12f but showed his true worth in that amazing lockinge. He had loads of problems with injury iirc and was one of my very fav horses.
Vincent O’Brien said at the time that El Gran Senor might possibly be the best horse he had ever trained . Unfortunately the colt picked up a foot injury after his easy win at The Curragh ( I suppose he didn’t stay the mile and a half there either ? ) in the Irish Derby.
Vincent had instructed Eddery to hold on to El Gran Senor for as long as possible in order to utilise his
brilliant turn of foot – just as he had told Lester Piggott before Nijinsky’s Derby.Pat Eddery said this after the ’84 Derby : ” I have never been travelling so well
on any horse ; I thought I had a stone in hand over Secreto . If anything , I got there too soon . I should have held onto my horse a bit longer ( well, Vincent did tell him ). They say he didn’t stay. He was beaten four inches ; had he won by four inches , he would have stayed .Yes Pat, the cynics and doubters can be a very fickle bunch indeed.
If El Gran Senor didn’t stay ( he most definitely did , in my opinion ) why did Vincent O’Brien decide to run him at The Curragh against Rainbow Quest , instead of heading to the mile and a quarter Eclipse at Sandown ?
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If El Gran Senor didn’t stay ( he most definitely did , in my opinion ) why did Vincent O’Brien decide to run him at The Curragh against Rainbow Quest , instead of heading to the mile and a quarter Eclipse at Sandown ?
Sadlers Wells
They wanted a win at 12fs with the horse despite the horse not staying the trip well. No better opportunity than the Irish Derby against his own age group. If he had stayed the trip well he would have beaten
Secreto by at least 6 lengths.
Horses don’t always have to stay a trip to win, their class pulls them through.Do you think Hawk Wing stayed 12fs or that El Gran Senor would have run over 12fs again after the Irish Derby?
It depends on your definition of “staying the distance.”
To me, it is defined by being able to equal or exceed your career best rating at the distance
El Gran Señor was clearly best at 1m, as was Hawk Wing.
So for me neither really stayed 1m 4f despite winning an Irish Derby and being well clear of the third in a Derby.
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It's the "Millwall FC" of Point broadcasts: "No One Likes Us - We Don't Care"I always have a little chuckle when this word , class , is bandied about. ” Their class
pulls them through. ”Class simply means having above average ability , when used in any sporting context.
I would the say, their ability :ie speed and stamina, allied to temperament and courage
pulled them through. We are constantly told by the “experts” that Nijinsky didn’t stay
the Leger trip. If he didn’t stay, what of the other also rans in the race ?I put up the thoughts of Pat Eddery, which seemed to have been thrust aside as if
his professional, first hand knowledge was of no consequence.Of course El Gran Senor Stayed – Hawk Wing did not .
One had reserves of stamina ( EGS ) , the other ( Hawk Wing ) did not.If you maintain that El Gran Senor didn’t stay , then it must surely follow that
Secreto did not stay either.
The master craftsman himself , Vincent O’Brien , clearly thought
El Gran Senor stayed .O’Brien said that El Gran Senor was the best in his stable at that time.
The usual route for Derby winners then was Irish Derby, King George
and Arc. The modern day 1O furlong fad was of secondary consideration
back in 84 and prior to that – and I am confident that is
the route the good doctor would have taken with El Gran Senor, had he
not picked up his injury.Gambling Only Pays When You're Winning
El Gran Senor got a 11/2m alright but was badly ridden in the 84 Derby.Rainbow Quest was a beast of a horse who’s form franks that of Robert Sangsters horse.I’d have loved to have seen ‘Senor’ in the 84 King Geeorge against the 83 Derby Winner Teenoso.Chief Singer proved that ‘EGS’ had incredible speed too,he was an incredible horse around at a time incredible horses were in abundance.(The mid 80’s).
I remember chief singers debut in the coventrybwhen he bolted up. Was a beast of s horse and just loved watching him. The early 80s saw loads of top horses and chief singer was right up there. As I said El gran señor is the best miler in my lifetime and then of course chief singer was a brilliant winner of the July cup. I believe a panel of so called experts made El gran señor the second best miler of all time behind the brigadier with Frankel 3rd which backs up what vincent Obrien said at the time. Brilliant times to be a racing nut like me.
I believe a panel of so called experts made El gran señor the second best miler of all time behind the brigadier with Frankel 3rd which backs up what vincent Obrien said at the time. Brilliant times to be a racing nut like me.
I think you are referring to a fantasy/virual race between recent past 2,OOO Guineas winners , rather than determining the best miler of all time.
There was also a recent virtual Derby . I don’t know who makes these ( Qipco/Timeform ? ) videos
– but they are just for fun – obviously, if you watch the virtual Derby. Based on timeform figures
prior to each runners pre Derby form. No pre 7Os Derby winner was included . Nijinsky was their 7/4 fav , Mill Reef at 14/1 ! Indeed laughable. I would have chewed anyone’s arm off to take that price.Anyhow, they had Shergar winning the race at 2/1 , ahead of Nijinsky in 2nd and Troy in third. I know…
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