The Derby 2009

[Aragorn]

Aragorn – you only get one chance at the Triple Crown, the Arc can be next year or the year after. There is an Arc winner every year – there is a Triple Crown winner every 30 years?

Whom do you remember most vividly from 1970 – Nijinsky or the Arc winner?

I wasn’t born Seriously though, I know who Dancing Brave is and he didn’t win the Derby but won the Arc to confirm himself as the champion everyone thought he was. Zarkava did the same thing last year.

[Euro]

I don’t know about Conduit but I would think Presvis is very close to being the best around at 10f and nobody has described him as a superstar.

Winning Group 1s in the middle of nowhere isn’t gonna get you a superstar tag.

StS has won the Guineas and Derby without being extended.

[The Ante-Post King]

RIP VAN WINKLE defineately stayed the 11/2m so i was wrong there,i dont think he is a 11/2m horse though, i just dont like that head carriage!
Having backed Gan Amrhas at 50 and Black bear island at 40 i was hugely
dissapointed in boths performances! They will both win Group 1 races though, Masterofthehorse saved my bacon having backed him at 36 and 8 to place, he was given plenty to do and i can see him running against Sea the Stars in the Irish Derby! The winner is a Rolls royce of a horse,but he
doesn"t have that Wow factor some Derby winners have,he just seemed to
do every thing right at the right time, When he takes on the 4yo"s we will see if he is the new Dancing Brave! It would be great if he was!

[shabby]

I don’t know about the ‘aura’ surrounding Nijinsky but visually and in terms of achievement at this stage there is no comparison. Nijinsky was a Champion at two and won the first two Classics under a hands and heels ride.
.

That’s a good point about Nijinsky being a champion at two, STS very respectable but not a champion.
However, the point about ‘this stage of his career’ is debatable in that, although he went on to win the Irish Derby, KG and St Leger from Epsom it could be argued that his greatest performances were behind him already at this stage and that STS has a very big opportunity to achieve more post Epsom than Nijinsky. Still got to do it of course.
Also, Sea The Stars Derby victory every bit as comfortable as the great Nijinsky.

[Zarkava]

It just seems people are desperate to give a very good horse a ‘superstar’ tag. Why?

I don’t know about Conduit but I would think Presvis is very close to being the best around at 10f and nobody has described him as a superstar.

See I think this is why I find the mentality on this continent pretty sad. When it comes to handicaps or Listed races or Group 2s or 3s, fine, form’s obviously pretty important since they’re not running in the premier class of races.

But when you get a Group 1 winner, I think there’s often this ‘obsession’ to dismantle the form and belittle the winner. I’ve been guilty of doing it to certain horses – Authorized and Proclamation are the 2 who come immediately to mind.

I was watching the Breeders’ Cup in November and was astounded at how much praise Zenyatta gets from the handicappers and presenters over there. They absolutely love her. Never raced against the colts in her life, but she beat all the fillies comfortably last year and she deserved to be championed and appreciated.

People go on all the time about ‘how racing needs a horse like Sea The Stars’ and not 24 hours goes by and already people are crabbing the form! Jesus wept, forget the finishing positions of the horses for a second. Just analyse the form based on the following;

1st – 2000 Guineas winner
2nd – Criterium de Saint Cloud, Ballysax & Derrinstown winner (carrying a G1 penalty in the latter 2)
3rd – Chester Vase runner-up given far too much to do that day
4th – 2000 Guineas 4th
5th – Chester Vase winner
6th – Racing Post Trophy winner & infected when disappointing in the Dante
7th – Lingfield Derby Trial winner
8th – Autumn Stakes winner
9th – Blue Riband winner & Chester Vase 3rd
10th – Dante Stakes winner
11th – 2000 Guineas 3rd
12th – Lingfield Derby Trial runner-up

I mean come on, this was comfortably the strongest Derby field assembled since 2001 and fitting that we’ve had a winner of the calibre of Galileo.

Everyone lumps praise on Sinndar (and rightly so), but his Derby was the absolute pits. What did he race against? A Dante winner & a 2000 Guineas 3rd – that was it! The field was full of Derby Trial also-rans. The Predominate runner-up finished 7th! Dee Stakes 3rd was in 9th! Wellbeing had won 2 Conditions races that year (Class 3 and 4) and he finished 5th!

So come on, just appreciate the horse for the Champion he is.

p.s. Presvis – I think because so often we see these globetrotters come back to the continent and disappoint. I think a true Champion is one that wins in whichever country you put him/her in. Fair enough, Presvis and Viva Pataca might be true world beaters and I’d love to see them race over here, but the last time we saw them both in this country they were getting beaten in handicaps (the time before last for Presvis admittedly). The Prince of Wales’ and King George are there for them to turn up in but year after year they decide to pass them up.

Is it any wonder they don’t the credit they ‘deserve’?

[Ian]

Aragon you can’t judge the strength of a race just by naming races other horses have won. Something has to win those races. You could put a load of 80 rated horses in the Dante and if there’s nothing better in the race an 80 odd rated horse will win. Ok not the best example but its about merit of performances rather than the stature of races you get average horses winning "top" races if all there are is average horses around.

As for Sinndars Derby being crap he beat Sakhee who subsequently proved to be absolutely top class.

The way you will find how good the three year olds are is when they take on the older horses. The 3yo’s are lucky this year in that the older horses stayed in training are the weakest bunch for a good few years IMO.

[Himself]

That’s a good point about Nijinsky being a champion at two, STS very respectable but not a champion.
However, the point about ‘this stage of his career’ is debatable in that, although he went on to win the Irish Derby, KG and St Leger from Epsom it could be argued that his greatest performances were behind him already at this stage and that STS has a very big opportunity to achieve more post Epsom than Nijinsky. Still got to do it of course.
Also, Sea The Stars Derby victory every bit as comfortable as the great Nijinsky.

Nijinsky’s greatest performance was in the King George & QE diamond stakes of 1970 ( see You Tube for visual evidence ).

Vincent O’Brien and Lester Piggott were also of that opinion. He won in a common canter. An easier winner of that race I have yet to see.

So, if Sea Stars should contest that race and beat off the top older older horses with the same nonchalent ease as Nijinsky did, then maybe he’d be begin to get mentioned in the same breath as the last triple crown winner.

I say maybe.

Gambling Only Pays When You're Winning

[Anonymous]

And I’ll win the 100 mts at the next Olympics

Just because a horse beats his elders or his juniors is not what makes them great.

Nijinsky like Sea the Stars travelled ver well in his race but with a huge difference. He had awsome accelerations as did greats like Shergar and Sea Bird II. Look at the way Galileo sprinted away from his field when asked in comparision to Sea the Stars and the difference is so visually eyecatching it’s easy to imagine him winning this years race.

Beating your elders isn’t the best way to judge a horse although some of you do when it suits you.

Cast your minds back to the Arc and how many of you said Zarkava was the best filly you had ever seen after the race?

Was that because she beat Youzmain a lousy 2 lengths, a horse who has won 1 race in two years from a dozen attempts or because you were visualy impressed?

I would love a bet that Sea the Stars will avoid the Arc like the plague and I have sever doubts he’ll go anywhere near the King George.

[thebrigadier]

Nijinsky’s greatest performance was in the King George & QE diamond stakes of 1970 ( see You Tube for visual evidence ).

Vincent O’Brien and Lester Piggott were also of that opinion. He won in a common canter. An easier winner of that race I have yet to see.

So, if Sea Stars should contest that race and beat off the top older older horses with the same nonchalent ease as Nijinsky did, then maybe he’d be begin to get mentioned in the same breath as the last triple crown winner.

I say maybe.

I agree the KG was Nijinsky’s best performance. I don’t think STS will prove to be as good as Nijinsky but he is certainly very much above average in winning the Guineas and the Derby. If the plan is to campaign him at 10f and they think highly enough of him to take on older horses at this stage I see little point in running him in the Irish Derby and would go next for the Eclipse where he is also likely to get better ground. As Oxx believes he needs good fast ground he is unlikely to get that in the Arc, so go for the Leger and the record books!

Btw don’t forget the fillies, the last triple crown winner was in 1985.

[cormack15]

Quote Zarkava –

Everyone lumps praise on Sinndar (and rightly so), but his Derby was the absolute pits

Hardly. Sakhee went on to win an Arc and an International at York,. Beat Hollow (fourth beaten 6 lengths by Sinndar) won four Group Ones including an Arlington Million and teh 4th Best of the Bests was no slouch either, winning the Group One Prix D’Ispahan.

To be honest I doubt there are that many Derby’s in the last twenty tears where the first four have all gone on to win a Group One. Are there….?

[Zarkava]

Well I actually meant it looked the pits beforehand. How could I justify insulting a Derby field with 2 subsequent Arc winners?

What I meant was that it looked dire beforehand but the winner had praise heaped upon him nonetheless.

[Goldikova]

People always fail to mention that Zarkava was receiving about 11 pounds in the arc. That was a very generous allowance

[davidbrady]

I read today on Donn McClean’s blog (he quotes James Willoughby in the RP) that although Saturday’s race was run in an almost identical time to that of Sinndar’s and on very similar ground, the first 5f of Saturday’s Derby were run 5.5secs slower than in Sinndar’s Derby which effectively turned the race into a sprint at the end.

I will be taking on Sea The Stars next time out no matter where he runs.

[Anonymous]

I read today on Donn McClean’s blog (he quotes James Willoughby in the RP) that although Saturday’s race was run in an almost identical time to that of Sinndar’s and on very similar ground, the first 5f of Saturday’s Derby were run 5.5secs slower than in Sinndar’s Derby which effectively turned the race into a sprint at the end.

I will be taking on Sea The Stars next time out no matter where he runs.

db
I’m amazed anyone would think that a last 7f run in such a good time constitutes a ‘sprint’?
As with Sir Percy’s Derby, the horses still have to use the energy sometime, even though it may not be such an even spread, and also like Sir Percy, we’ll probably find that STS is as good over 12f as he is over shorter.

[davidbrady]

But we only have to look at this years farcical Ormonde Stakes to see that a slowly run first portion is going to put stamina horses at a disadvantage at the business end.

I think that STS might struggle in a strongly run 12f race.

[Ian]

Heffernan quoted today that he would ride Fame And Glory differently had he the chance again. I really don’t know why certain jockeys can’t engage their brains before the event its commonsense really not to give a Guineas winner a start in a slowly run race UNLESS you have a horses that litterally has to be held up.

[MDeering]

But we only have to look at this years farcical Ormonde Stakes to see that a slowly run first portion is going to put stamina horses at a disadvantage at the business end.

That’s a very extreme example.

[Author]

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