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Second place is well and truly up for grabs, but it has nothing to do with McCoy being on board. It has to do with the fact that Denman was beaten BEFORE 4 out yesterday. If he’d jumped the last 4 perfectly he still would have been beaten imo.
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A point those on board sadly miss.
But looking at the race itself how badly has Denman run.
If you look at the Hennessy and the AON together what you get is a carbon copy. If it wasn’t for the other horses you would think you were watching the same race again. Those who think AP was asking too much of the horse going to the 4th last should go back and watch how Ruby rides him into it…he really got after Denman and rode him like a man possesed going into the fence whereas AP asked much less of the horse with good reason.
Until turning for home both Niche Market and Denman ran exactly the same race as they did in the Hennessy.
The difference was that this time when Denman went on Niche Market was able to get back on terms. When Denman goes Niche Market runs on in exactly the same way as he did in the Henessy running on at the one pace.
Considering Niche Market was able to come back at Denman either he has improved by about 32 lbs or Denman was undercooked.
Take your pick
Some interesting views here. It’s worth watching the Hennessy again from the cross-fence to three out.
Of course, Denman is giving weight to these horses, but you’ll notice that at the fifth last it looks as though he’s about to pull away but then at the fourth last Niche Market, Barber’s Shop and co are back on his heels.
It’s only his jumps at that fence and the third last which really seal the fate of those rivals.
I just wonder if he’s getting a bit lazy – unlike in the Gold Cup of 2008, where he kept pouring it on even when he was on his own, does he wait to hear other horses near him before he responds again? In the Hennessy he seemed to ‘step up’ at least twice in the straight, once at the fourth last and then again when challenged at the last.
I went down to the second last yesterday and watched the race from there. Beforehand, a photographer friend mentioned that Denman would be jumping on the far side as Ruby liked to bring him a little wider in the straight owing to his tendency to lead on a particular foot (I think he said right – which seemed odd given his preference for left-handed tracks).
Anyway, this also got me thinking and it is interesting to notice that down the back straight in the Hennessy Denman was in the middle of the course.
This wasn’t the case under his new rider, who logically kept him close to the inside rail.
You’ve got to keep some perspective here. Horses can fall and have off days. The race reminded me a lot of Kauto Star’s UR in the Betfair Chase of 2008. Was this not a similar performance? Even if Kauto Star had won that he’d have scraped home against vastly inferior rivals, yet a month later he was back to his best.
No reason why Denman can’t do the same. He didn’t look a sick horse like he did at Kempton and he would probably have ground out a workmanlike victory, after which connections would have said he wasn’t 100% and the run would put him spot on.
Yes, his jumping is a concern and there should be some debate over whether a new rider is the right thing for him rather than someone who knows him really well like Sam Thomas. However, it’s not a disaster so long as he is back ok.
That’s my view.
Most of you will know I’ve never been Denman’s most ardent fan although I was one of the very few who said he would come back and come back he did.
Now we have some people saying again he is finished and other blaming Tony McCoy.
I doubt unless he’s injured if that race will have set Denman back 1" and as far as Tony McCoy is concerned I’ve never read so much dribble in all my life. He took a pull he changed his mind……wtf do these people get these ideas from? do you actually watch the racing or do you do make it up as you go along.
When I watched the race I remarked to me friend on the first circuit he wasn’t travelling at all well. Tony was having to ride him to get him to stride on and that shouldn’t have been the case against that lot. Fence after fence he was also having to get him to come up which again is not the usual for Denman.
I’d say without a shadow of a doubt Denman would not have won today even if he hadn’t made that mistake then fell at the next. As far as the mistake goes I’d say AP felt him going and didn’t want to push him into the fence and the big horse put down on him. He did exactly the same thing last season when tiring did he not?
I’d say he was slightly fitter as he was when he took on MDB at Kempton but that horse was no where near 100% today.
I believe the man to blame is PN he does this so often with his horses before the big one. He tries to get them there just fit enough to win and that’s it. He doesn’t have the Henderson knack for it IMO and very often gets it wrong like he has and almost has with Kauto in the past.
I doubt if this will make any difference to what happens in the Gold Cup other than Denman fans getting a bigger price
Your entitled to your opinion of course, but it doesn’t mean your right.
Anyone wanting AP McCoy to **** up today got just that and more,he couldn"t have made a more spectacular exit if he"d tried! The first mistake was forgiveable,but he should have given Denman time to recover,instead he went for a bigger than big one and that is what caused the horse to fall! Denman was a tired horse when he made the first mistake,irrelevant of what his weight was prior to the race,he was an unfit horse! Connections thought (including Ruby) he could still have won even if AP fell and remounted,maybe tongue in cheek but no way was that the Denman that is unbeaten around Newbury!I have supported Sam from day 1 but not even he would have won on Denman today,he would have still been beaten even if he had stood up! Poor show all round!
I’ve been on AP’s case but i think the mistake that got rid of him was the horse not having got his marbles back and being too brave. I don’t think AP had a say in the matter.
All the people I know who criticised the choice said it was because they believed that he would put Denman on the floor because his style wouldn’t sit with the horse, and it didn’t.
Ok, personally I’ve never been a fan of AP, but I adore Denman and if I thought he was right for the horse I’d have been happy enough. But he’s just not somehow. Remember, Hen Knight once said he wasn’t right for Best Mate; there’s a big difference between being the "best jockey" and the "best jockey for the horse".
Exactly! You wouldn’t say Culloty was a McCoy or a Walsh but he was the right jock for Best Mate.
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When Did Hern say that? When Cullotty was injured he took over for one ride and won the King George plus AP schooled the horse for her dozens of times. She stayed loyal to Cullotty but no way do I recall her uttering those words.
Tony, Ruby, Sam or whoever sit on horses everyday they have never seen before in their lives before and win on them. That’s why they are called proffesionals.
Didn’t make an ounce of difference to Denman when Ruby took over or should I say when Sam took over or was it Christain Williams who won 3 on Denman they took over from.
My granny could ride Denman ffs
I am not a great fan of tony mccoy,but there is no way a jockey who has ridden as many winners as him does not know what he has under him and he clearly said he was surprised to see his pursuers as close turning in,lets face it a half fit denman should have disposed of this field so for whatever reason and it is all speculation he did not run his race,i am however a great believer in keeping winning horses and jocks together if possible.
the horse is a flop
never been up to much
over rated
wouldnt send him in a milk round
Every year I recall threads around autumn berating the fact that AP or racing never gets a look in for SPOTY, particularly as racing is a popular sport, of the kings, and because in terms of achievements AP is the most successful rider that racing has seen and longest reigning champion unlikely to ever be equalled, something the like of rarely seen in any sport.
Yet if a neutral person thinking of voting in SPOTY or maybe even the person putting the nominees lists together ever looked here, supposedly the intelligent place for racing discussion by those who participate, follow and know, you really can’t expect racing or AP ever to get a look in for SPOTY.
This is the forum that constantly knocks most forms of racing and those that participate in it, suggesting all weather racing shouldn’t occur and that the most common and largest proportion of flat racing is low standard and should be binned in favour of something more elite.
It also now seems to be suggesting, backing up the votes on other forums such as the RP, that AP shouldn’t have even been given the ride on Denman as he is no good, at even presenting a horse at a fence.
I’m surprised we haven’t had the suggestion yet that it was a fix. Any neutrals looking in would be most confused here.
I wouldn’t be surprised if at least half the posters here had prepared two posts, one suggesting he should have always ridden the horse if he cruised it and the ones actually posted, after the result.
I haven’t read all the comments here but my view is that Denman did not necessarily look like he was going to win even without the blunders. McCoy looked worried, the horse was not travelling as easily as some have claimed and the pack was closing.
I think Denman might have laboured to a narrow success but he could equally as likely have been beaten.
McCoy may not be the perfect choice of jockey for Denman but I don’t necessarily think he cost the horse the race.
Denman’s capitulation can be put down to more than one attributing factor.
You simply can not blame McCoy for his mounts less than satisfactory display, but anyone who believes he did nothing wrong must be blind or switched channels when they turned in.
McCoy returned to say
"I wasn’t confident that he was travelling as well as perhaps it looked. He made that first mistake and then stepped on top of the next fence."
McCoy realized this before the home turn and should have popped Denman over the remaining fences, not ask him for a big jump. Some believe that it was Denman who decided to stand-off. Either way, McCoy is employed to make these decisions and got it wrong.
I think that’s the only difference Sam Thomas would have made. He would have looked after Denman – a horse he knows very well – and proceeded with caution.
Denman was a beaten horse before his exit and neither Sam or Ruby would have changed this.
Hard to believe that Paul Nicholls misjudged Denman to the extent where his charge would suffer a 7L and 29lb reversal in form – could very well have been a 14L and 29lb reversal.
The stable are clearly in good form (four-timer yesterday) and Paul Nicholls successfully prepared Master Minded to return from an enforced 90-day absence to produce one of the best performances of his career.
Denman looked fit enough to win yesterday, so you can’t blame the trainer.
I’ve always maintained that Denman’s ego is dented when he can’t bully his rivals. He couldn’t break Madison Du Berlais last season and he couldn’t shake off Niche Market yesterday who, inevitably, broke Denman.
Denman could easily come back and win a Gold Cup. Kauto Star is the better horse, but Cheltenham over an extended three miles-two is a great equalizer of talent.
Impossible and naive to pinpoint his demise on one factor. McCoy will not be a burden to his chances at Cheltenham and Paul Nicholls will have him spot-on.
It’s what goes on in Denman’s head that is the main worry and whether he has the appetite for a scrap anymore.
Fist; I thought McCoy rode Best Mate in the King George one year and got beat on him; didn’t he admit that he rode the horse like a non stayer and that the defeat was his fault? I think sberry that the reason why this thread is in existence is because we feel so passionate about racing and even more so about this horse, and we just want the best for him. We are lucky to have witnessed two phenomenal Hennessey wins by him and he has become ‘our’ horse. As for McCoy, it’s difficult to warm to him because of his obsessive professionalism and dedication. I was in awe of the man when he broke his back and was riding again within weeks. Perhaps I want to see in him a glimmer of humanity, but most people that reach that pinnacle of success are too focussed to show that. It doesn’t mean that I don’t have the utmost respect for him.
An incredible thread,with an incredible amount of difference of opinion and yet there are only 2 contributing factors to this discussion. 1, was AP in any way to blame for Denmans fall? and 2, was Denman fit and well? My opinion is Yes AP F****d up,and No Denman was not fit and well! Just look how fast Tricky Trickster finished,he would have flown past the Denman that turned up yesterday!And there resteth the case for the prosecution m"lud! Guilty as charged!
For me that was all about Niche Market today. I think both Denman & McCoy expected to be miles away by the time they got to that fence & I think that horse coming at them took them by surprise.
Couldn’t agree with this more. Look at how Denman beat this horse in the Henessy, here he was right behind him at level weights? He was coming back at him when Denman made his first mistake. Leaving AP aside if I may, I say use Niche Market as a marker, this was not the same Denman we saw last time. Maybe that weight carrying performance really took it out of him after all?
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