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Paul Nicholls’ words from today…
"There are a couple of things to remember – he’s a month off being anywhere near as good as he was in the Hennessy, both mentally and physically.
Seems what i was getting at was correct, so for those who were slating me for having an ‘arm chair’ view, would you like to comment on those words from Denman’s trainer? ? ?
Some amount of rubbish written on this thread. Ruby and Master Minded had a disagreement of sorts at the last fence yesterday but there was barely a word about it because he managed somehow to stand up. McCoy was unfortunate and I can’t see how the outcome would have been different if someone else was riding. The horse was clearly below form yesterday.
The difference is that McCoy’s appointment was met with a well publicised division of opinion.
Taking into consideration the horse he was riding and the attention this race was going to demand with a view to Cheltenham, the racing public waited with bated breath to see how the partnership was going to fare.
The outcome, whether or not you believe McCoy to be at fault in anyway, put him in a position to be criticised.
On the back of a big shock like that, AP will go into the big one knowing a little more about what Denman can & cannot do.
Part of me (the small part of me that thinks horses are capable of thinking) thinks that Denman might have done that to show McCoy who’s boss.
I’d be more inclined to think that Denman has posed more questions than answers for McCoy. Paul Nicholls stated that he will not allow McCoy to ride Denman at home ‘given the nature of the beast’ ie Denman’s inconsistency at home.
If Denman has proven to McCoy who’s boss, he may as well be 100/1.
If Nicholls has stated that McCoy cannot ride Denman at home then that is gross unprofessionalism to be honest. Would Alex Ferguson buy someone without looking at him first??………absolutely scandalous that if true.
I have always been of the opinion you would have seen a more consistant Denman had Nicholls not had Kauto. Its a crying shame IMHO that he has the two.Some reflections –
http://www.theracingforum.co.uk/horse-racing-features/2010/02/denman-champ-needs-another-comeback/
I googled Mr Mulligan to see if I was right about the King George and found an interview with Noel Chance who said that McCoy can sit on a horse for three minutes and tell you things about him that it has taken you 2 years to find out. Also that he wanted McCoy to ride the horse prior to the Gold Cup to get a feel for him. Could history repeat itself?
If Nicholls has stated that McCoy cannot ride Denman at home then that is gross unprofessionalism to be honest.
I read that earlier and it sounded a bit crazy to me. Yes, sometimes it happens that you don’t sit on a horse til the day of the race but if the chance is there, surely you take it? Sounds like he was worried AP might have him on the floor at home…
Paul Nicholls’ words from today…
"There are a couple of things to remember – he’s a month off being anywhere near as good as he was in the Hennessy, both mentally and physically.
Seems what i was getting at was correct, so for those who were slating me for having an ‘arm chair’ view, would you like to comment on those words from Denman’s trainer? ? ?
Gaz this thread has certainly opened up those who haven"t got a clue about how fit a horse is,by watching it run in a race!
Oh please – Re : Paul Nicholls comments.
There was no such mention before the race infact on the Morning Line apparently Denman had been working well and he was mentally bang on much more so than he was before the Hennessy when they didn’t think he was right at all. Go back watch it again if you’ve Sky plussed it.
Fot the millionth time – DO NOT TAKE AS GOSPEL WHAT A TRAINER OR JOCKEY SAYS!!!!
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Hell! I don’t need Paul Nicholls to tell me that.as I said he’s the man to blame if you have to blame someone not AP. Horse wasn’t as fit as he should be and once gains PN has overdone the undercooking. That of course is only my opinion but I have held something back.
I had a daft accumalator on which would have netted me a nice tidy sum had Denman won. Fisrt winner at Ayr, Dirty Harry, PN’s in the 2nd, Long Run, Master Minded, Bellvano and Denman.
So I should be the one slagging AP but I’m not…Why?….ask yourself these questions….to your eyes was Denman tiring? or put it another way was he picking up like he normally does?
If AP was to blame exactly what did he do that was out of the ordinary?
Did he ask the horse to take of at the wrong moment that caused the crucial error?
Do jockey’s every day of the week make a decision to let the horse jump with no more than a squeeze and they get over without incident?
Just please someone explain to me exactly what AP did that caused Denman to walk through the fence?
If you can’t there are plenty other places where youcan post…like do you like knitting in the lounge forum
On yesterday’s display, mistakes or not, Denman has a mountain to climb to beat Kauto Star.
He needs to turn up at Cheltenham a different horse (Arkle would be good) to trouble KS, although I wouldn’t give up hope that he might.
His awesome win in the Hennessy was only a couple of months ago. Put a jockey on who suits the horse and primed for the occasion and you’ll see the tank back with all guns blazing.
A lot of you are on about Denman being unfit but that’s not why he made the initial mistake. He should have been fit enough to win maybe 10 lengths instead of 20 and whose to say he wouldn’t have. IMO the reason he made the mistake is because the jockey nudged him at the fence for a long one then changed his mind..simple as.
They may well have gone quicker in the Hennessy and Niche Market couldn’t live with that pace, hence the different margins between the two.
My opinion, for what it’s worth.
It did not look like Denman settled throughout the race, whether it was he was not fit or he did not like the feel of the jockey on his back. Either way, he never looked in control in the way he normally does.
I personally think McCoy is the best jockey for getting the most out of underperforming horses, much to the fact he has been booked on some very average rides over the past couple of years.
In this case, Denman is such as dominant animal and a ‘bully’ of a horse. Maybe there was a style clash between the two.
Although everyone is angry with the horse/jockey/trainer for what happened and the money we all lost on Saturday, I think you have to put it in perspective.
I would rather see what happened on Saturday, happen then, than in the Gold Cup. Let’s all hope that McCoy schools the horse a couple of times in Ditcheat. Cause does anyone really believe Findlay and Barber will drop the champion jockey after the build up they have given him.
For me that was all about Niche Market today.
It certainly was, and in hindsight was it especially intelligent of McCoy to try to dice for the first two miles with a horse in Niche Market who, if memory serves, has been mostly ridden as a led / disputed lead / chased leader sort of horse all season?
The frittering away of energy for the sake of eyeballing the Buckler gelding took a lot out of Denman; and if he was, as some have suggested, less than 100% fit entering this race, then doing more than was strictly required before the race had begun in earnest went a long way towards sealing this fate.
gc
Jeremy Grayson. Son of immigrant. Adoptive father of two. Metadata librarian. Freelance point-to-point / horse racing writer, analyst and commentator wonk. Loves music, buses, cats, the BBC Micro, ale. Advocate of CBT, PACE and therapeutic parenting. Aspergers.
Considering the eventual winner was still some way behind Denman when he ejected McCoy, surely getting him over the third last and letting him recover his composure rather than asking for a long one would have been a much better choice?
I’m sure he’d still have been good enough to win even allowing for the first error had been ridden more in the style of Geraghty / Punchestowns a week earlier, albeit their error was some way further from the finishDon’t panic Capt Mainwaring!!!
Maybe Denman needs a good rest and a happy (semi) retirement, if he’s missing racing sent him Hunting, he’d be a hell of a bet in The Foxhunters in a year or two
…or three – his Hennessy win excludes him from points and hunter chases until the 2012-13 campaign, if I’ve read the rules correctly.
He’d be 13 by the time of the 2013 Foxhunters, though it’s likely that thoughts of wheeling him out to contest any manner of race at that age wouldn’t sit easily with everyone.
gc
Jeremy Grayson. Son of immigrant. Adoptive father of two. Metadata librarian. Freelance point-to-point / horse racing writer, analyst and commentator wonk. Loves music, buses, cats, the BBC Micro, ale. Advocate of CBT, PACE and therapeutic parenting. Aspergers.
Maybe Denman needs a good rest and a happy (semi) retirement, if he’s missing racing sent him Hunting, he’d be a hell of a bet in The Foxhunters in a year or two
…or three – his Hennessy win excludes him from points and hunter chases until the 2012-13 campaign, if I’ve read the rules correctly.
He’d be 13 by the time of the 2013 Foxhunters, though it’s likely that thoughts of wheeling him out to contest any manner of race at that age wouldn’t sit easily with everyone.
gc
Thanks for the info,grayson, that post was
slightly
tounge in cheek, I didn’t realise he’d have to wait that long to qualify, agreed I certainly wouldn’t want to see him at The Festival at 13, except in a parade of champions, but I do fear for his well being unless there’s a jockey change before this years Gold Cup
Just please someone explain to me exactly what AP did that caused Denman to walk through the fence?
What he did was basically lose control of the horse,the pair of them barely had time to recover from the mistake at the 4th last before AP was chucking the coals on again,he was that busy playing catch up you would have thought from his riding style,there wasn"t a 3rd last fence there at all,he never gave the horse a chance to find its stride and Denman being Denman must have thought **** this i"ll just plough straight through it!AP got his timing way wrong! We all make mistakes,some folk just dont like admitting it!
Just please someone explain to me exactly what AP did that caused Denman to walk through the fence?
What he did was basically lose control of the horse,the pair of them barely had time to recover from the mistake at the 4th last before AP was chucking the coals on again,he was that busy playing catch up you would have thought from his riding style,there wasn"t a 3rd last fence there at all,he never gave the horse a chance to find its stride and Denman being Denman must have thought **** this i"ll just plough straight through it!AP got his timing way wrong! We all make mistakes,some folk just dont like admitting it!
That beats the bullsh*t written by Brough Scott by a countryt mile. Well done TAPK
If AP hadn’t been on him prior to the race then, for what it’s worth, I think the earlier post regarding AP riding three notches up in the stirrups could be a serious factor. I’m not that au fait with a horse’s anatomy but I can imagine that if I’d been used to being ridden for years with lumps of metal banging into my abdomen and then some stranger gets on board with the stirrups banging into my ribs I tend to think I’d be a wee bit pi–ed off.
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