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Fist if sts ran in the king george and won what has he beaten? The field is a bunch of losers. So to beat that field does not ad to his reputation does it? And if he was beaten then what? So it is a bad investment to run in such a race. It is easy to say he bugs you. But if you were his owner you would see the wisdom of the decision not to run him. His future as a sire of 1 1/.4 milers is much brighter than as a sire of 1 1/2 milers.With that kind of money at stake you cannot let emotions rule the day. It is all about money. If the Sheiks buy him it will be to get 1 1/4 milers . they already have another Derby winner.( who failed over the shorter distance)
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A St Leger winner and Breeders winner is hardly a loser and by the end of the season who knows what heights Conduit can rise to.
Why do you think SMS ran the horse in the Eclipse? It was purely a gamble to increase his future stud value.
What bugs the hell out of me is people saying Sea the Stars is some Great champion when he his Derby was regarded as a farce and to date he has only beaten horses who like him haven’t been tesed outside of their own sphere/ age group and Conduit at what turned out to be an unsuitable distance or if you are correct he’s a uselesss lump of lard.
I’m not blaming Oxx for what he is doing Andy and I never came up the Thames on a banana skin. I know exactly the game he is playing and after the Derby he never had any intentions of taking on any decent horse over 1m4f again. Why do you think I grabbed the 5/1 and 3/1 about Conduit hardly because I don’t understand how trainers think mate..is it?
I just get a bit sick of the media saying every horse who wins a few races is a great champion. They throw champions about like confetti and the gullable public take it all in. It’s sell sell sell my friends.
If and when he wins the Juddmonte then I will start to believe he might just be as good as some say. I wouldn’t take 1/1 about him winning it nor would I lay him and I’ll tell you why.
Year after year horses improve past others like Raven’s looked like he could never beat Henry but proved to be a better horse at the end of the day. DOM won 5 Group 1 then was made to look ordinary in both the Arc and the Breeders’ Cup Classic. We are rapidly approaching the toughest part of the season when real Champion emerge or etch their reputations in stone
I defy anyone to tell me that Sea the Stars deserves the accolade Timeform bestowed upon him "Best horse in the world" when he’s hardly travelled outside his own back yard. What a crock that is, how the hell would they know how he comapares to horses in the USA or anywhere else outside the UK?.
Curlin ie established his reputation over 2 continents over 3 years, taking on the best in the world and puting his neck on the line time after time. Even he was found wanting when he came up against Raven and Henry but he earned the praise he got ad he wouldn’t be mentioned in the same breath by some as Secreteriat or Affirmed
IMO Sea the Stars + very good….Great? I doubt if anyone will ever know but his bubble could be burst very soon.
Fist you are very harsh on Sea The Stars who is surely the best 3yo colt since Nashwan. I had my doubts for a while but I hold my hands up and admit I was wrong.
Ravens Pass wasn’t helped by his trainer and jockey holding him up all the time because they were scared he wouldn’t get a mile. He didn’t have blistering accelaeration and had more use been made of him in his races he may well have beaten Henry before he did – the Sussex Stakes springs to mind.
New Approach proved himself to be a very good horse. So did the Duke. I would still rate Sea the Stars above both of them (And Henry and Raven’s) because of the distances he has won over. He’s beaten a couple of crack milers in Delegator and Mastercraftsman and effectively did what New Approach did when winning the Derby by beating a decent field off a slow pace. I still think he would beat Fame and Glory comfortably over 1m4f if the ground was good or better. If it was soft i’d leave well alone but hope Sea the Stars could do it!
As for the Duke, after he got over the injuries he carried at 3 he proved himself to be a very good horse (Not great though). His form is excellent but I would put Henry and Raven’s form above his. However taking into account his constitution, his size (Much scopier horse than his aforementioned counterparts), temperament and the fact that he is the last of the Danehill generation makes him an attractive proposition.
Anyhoo, what about this tipping?
You’ve got two hopes Aragorn- he scuttled off and sulked last time someone put his tips under scrutiny, not sure who
Fist,I think you give trainers more credit than they deserve for being devious. Oxx has been quite open with his plans for sts since day one.He took on what was available in the Derby and he took on what was available in the Eclipse.What is he supposed to do? Go around looking for something to,beat him? StS may be beatable but it is not his trainers job to see that it happens.
Coolmorte are in the Breeding business so they must find out how good their horses are. They depend on good horses to breed from. As the racing commentators say coming down the Thames on a banana would be visually exciting!You’ve got two hopes Aragorn- he scuttled off and sulked last time someone put his tips under scrutiny, not sure who
To be fair he has started a diary in the notebook section
Well blow me down, so he has- a must read for all of us sceptics in the months ahead! Fair play Fister!
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New Approach proved himself to be a very good horse. So did the Duke. I would still rate Sea the Stars above both of them (And Henry and Raven’s) because of the distances he has won over. He’s beaten a couple of crack milers in Delegator and Mastercraftsman and effectively did what New Approach did when winning the Derby by beating a decent field off a slow pace. I still think he would beat Fame and Glory comfortably over 1m4f if the ground was good or better. If it was soft i’d leave well alone but hope Sea the Stars could do it!
As for the Duke, after he got over the injuries he carried at 3 he proved himself to be a very good horse (Not great though). His form is excellent but I would put Henry and Raven’s form above his. However taking into account his constitution, his size (Much scopier horse than his aforementioned counterparts), temperament and the fact that he is the last of the Danehill generation makes him an attractive proposition.
Anyhoo, what about this tipping?
"Don’t eat yellow snow"
As far as Henry and Ravens are concerned I would have thought they were in a different league to RVW who is the best guide we have to how good StS actually is.
Anyway the Sussex and the Juddmonte should tell us more
.All depends how you look at it – i’d say Conduit, Mastercraftsman, Delegator, Fame and Glory have already given Sea The Stars form a very classy look.
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Just my opinion, but I’d say Conduit disappointed in the Eclipse, and it would be wrong to judge STS and RVW purely on how far he finished behind them.
One who rarely disappoints (though you couldn’t say the same for those who plan her tactics) is Look Here, who ran a blinder at the Curragh considering the ground, distance, steady pace and injudicious ride were all against her, and I’d much rather be on her at 7/1 than Conduit at a quarter of the price.Just my opinion, but I’d say Conduit disappointed in the Eclipse, and it would be wrong to judge STS and RVW purely on how far he finished behind them.
.But what about Cima De Triomphe, Steel Tango (who both seemed to run to their mark) and Twice Over who was stuffed and to be fair ran too badly to be true. Nevertheless if you throw Conduit in there are three horses behiond the front two that appeared to run to their rating.
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Perhaps you are looking at things a bit too simply Ian
We know Sea the Stars was at the top of his form and that RVW seems to have improved but SMS reckons Conduit wasn’t 100% can we agree on that?
I’m a great believer that when the great man speaks we should listen as he doesn’t say much but when he does he’s usually right on the ball.
He never says publically a horse will run in a race untl he’s all but 100% sure he will an if he thinks he might need a race he’s not shy in saying so…..even if you have backed him 3 days before
The thing is he made no secret of the fact run at Sandown and he just got done in that race giving 7lbs to Cima De Triomphe. Now at levels he finishes 4 1’2 lengths in front of Cima De Triomphe so purely on form has he improved since the Biragadier?
it would seem to me he hasn’t if you believe 3lb = 1 length over 5f and 1lb = length over 2m he’s probably run much the same sort of race in both events.
I normally don’t go into things in that way and I am just suggesting it backs up what SMS has said over the past few days.
Don’t forget the man has the patience of Job and won’t rush a horse and he’ll have been thinking King George and Arc for a long time. Much better he let’s the horse come to himself than go all out to win the Eclipse when he’s not really up to it… lose and set the horse back 2 months for his troubles.
You can’t take these form lines at face value without looking at the complete picture and considering all possibilities.
He still reckons he’ll be even better come October than he will be tomorrow which isn’t exactly music to me ears, but hopefully he can pull it off.
Perhaps you are looking at things a bit too simply Ian
We know Sea the Stars was at the top of his form and that RVW seems to have improved but SMS reckons Conduit wasn’t 100% can we agree on that?
I’m a great believer that when the great man speaks we should listen as he doesn’t say much but when he does he’s usually right on the ball.
He never says publically a horse will run in a race untl he’s all but 100% sure he will an if he thinks he might need a race he’s not shy in saying so…..even if you have backed him 3 days before
The thing is he made no secret of the fact run at Sandown and he just got done in that race giving 7lbs to Cima De Triomphe. Now at levels he finishes 4 1’2 lengths in front of Cima De Triomphe so purely on form has he improved since the Biragadier?
it would seem to me he hasn’t if you believe 3lb = 1 length over 5f and 1lb = length over 2m he’s probably run much the same sort of race in both events.
I normally don’t go into things in that way and I am just suggesting it backs up what SMS has said over the past few days.
Don’t forget the man has the patience of Job and won’t rush a horse and he’ll have been thinking King George and Arc for a long time. Much better he let’s the horse come to himself than go all out to win the Eclipse when he’s not really up to it… lose and set the horse back 2 months for his troubles.
You can’t take these form lines at face value without looking at the complete picture and considering all possibilities.
He still reckons he’ll be even better come October than he will be tomorrow which isn’t exactly music to me ears, but hopefully he can pull it off.
Fair enough Fist its all about opinions. Personally I think Conduit has run to 124 on both his starts this season. He may well improve on that but it will be because he’s stepped up in trip if he does.
I think when you have three horses in a field of that size that appear to have run right to their mark its a pretty good guide to the level of the form
Conduit shouldn’t need to improve tomorrow if he’s in the same form as he has been on both his starts this season he should really win it is a pretty weak group one.
Conduit proves why this has imo been the strongest Group 1 run this year. Rip should win the Sussex.
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