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This place is as bad as the last time I posted here, which was a little while ago for me.
Fist, you stated that Duke of Marmalade has already been forgotten and will do nothing at stud? Do you know which mares he has covered, how many, the quality of their pedigrees? What do you think makes a great stallion?
Duke of Marmalade was one of the toughest horses of both mind and body in the last ten years and in my opinion will make one hell of a stallion. Footstepsinthesand is another to follow.
Sea the Stars is a champion. Your attempts to come up with arguments to explain away Conduit getting stuffed and you looking a plonker are embarassing.
Take up Carvs offer (Which he must have put up about 20 times now) and take the opportunity to show all of the mug punters on here how it’s done. You never know, you could set up a tipping line after smashing the lizards for six.
PS – I am a massive fan of Sea the Stars. This horse has plenty left in the locker. Rip improved for the 10f. Oratorio like profile on racing and breeding.
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Well I’m without doubt the biggest Zarkava fan on here (unless someone else went to live in France to see her in the Grotte, Pouliches and Diane?) and I have absolutely no idea whether Zarkava would beat Sea The Stars or not. Absolutely none.
Yet Fist states categorically that STS would have won. Incredible.
I think you need to use your imagination more mate and learn to read.
I’m amazed you had the forsight to back her at 7/1 but can’t see she was much superior and achived much much more than Rip Van Winkle who had Sea the Stars geting 5 whacks on his backside to beat him.
How many smacks did Zarkava get to go past 11 horses like they were standing still in the Arc? She was never hit won all her races hands and heels and your saying you have no idea.
Anyway here’s food for thought.
Oxx has pulled Sea the Stars out of the King George and sends him to York and then to the Irish Champion Stakes.
They may be only 3 weeks apart but why not the King George and the Juddmonte? chances of good ground must be better than Ireland in September.
The Irish Champion Stakes last season was run on soft ground and if that happens Oxx won’t run him
I can’t see him going for the Arc so will the Juddmonte be the last race he will ever run in.? .
He reckons there is no sense in going for the Arc as the ground may be soft in October in France.
I can’t see him going for the Arc so will the Juddmonte be the last race he will ever run in.?
I’ve missed the news over the weekend, so this may have been revealed by John Oxx/Mick Kinane/Christopher Tsui already, but I’d be mighty surprised if Sea The Stars’ ultimate target from here on in
isn’t
the Breeders’ Cup Classic.
His profile has enough to it already, confirming himself clearly the best of what is, in hindsight, a pretty handy bunch of 3-y-os, winning the single most lucrative 12f race from a breeding point of view along the way. He’s also beaten one of the very best older horses out of sight, for all Conduit wasn’t quite at his best (for the record, Galileo’s little bro would have humped him anyway, Fist). Wins in any of the International, Champion Stakes or it’s Irish cousin wouldn’t add a huge amount to Sea The Stars’ CV with the Eclipse already present, so I’d imagine anything between now and late-October is merely a stepping stone to California?
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I doubt very very much if top breeders will take his Derby win too seriously Friggo. It has been chopped up and dissected by experts and regarded as no more of a test than a 7 furlong race at Ascot.
The horse is in the best form of his life but he has chosen not to run him in the King George over 1m4f the very race that if he had won it would have proved beyond any doubt he truly stays 1m4f in a true run race.
Oxx has ruled out the Arc already and there is absolutely no chance of him going to the USA for the Breeeders Cup Turf. and puting his neck on the line
I reckon they have decided to go for the unbeaten as a 3 year old route and do everything they can to avoid defeat and that includes avoiding the best in Europe /USA over 1m4f
That could just end up backfiring on them as Rip Van Winkle must have a chance of defeating him at York and if Oxx thinks he had the jitters before the Eclipse I think he’ll be in for a few sleepless nights before that race.
If he wins at York Oxx will be quite happy if the skies open up in September and he can then retire the horse with the excuse he has nothing else to run him in.
Mastercraftsman is Ballydoyle’s runner for the International, I will be surprised if Rip Van Winkle faces Sea The Stars again, RVW’s next races could be both at 1m then go for the BC Classic.
I don’t know if you misread my post, Fist (if so, learn to read, you pompous ass, etc. etc.
), but the Breeders’ Cup Turf wasn’t mentioned anywhere. The Classic
, over 10f on pro-ride, will be Sea The Stars’ target I’d imagine.
You also seem to be overestimating how in-depth the bloodstock industry looks at form, especially when they aren’t hell-bent on crabbing it. Derby winners from earlier this decade, some of which were routinely pumped after winning at Epsom, still stood for decent fees in their first season at stud. I’d strongly suggest that the fact that Sea The Stars’ Derby form has stood up to scrutiny in both the Irish Derby and Eclipse (and in more races that are still to come, I’m sure) is more than enough reason to suggest he gets 12f as far as most breeders are concerned.
Is it that important to breeders whether Sea The Stars truely stays twelve furlongs? Isn’t ten furlongs meant to be the holy grail now anyway?
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What do you expect Friggo I was Zarkava teacher at school
I think in many cases you are right Ian. I’m no expert but SMS would have loved to have won the Eclipse which would have added a lot to Cunduit’s value.
But as long as there’s a Derby surely 1m4f races are more improtatnt.
I think if a Derby winner that hasn’t gone 2000 guineas route can step back in trip and win the Eclpise that’s a huge plus but then miss the King George?? The great’s don’t do that do they?
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Mastercraftsman is Ballydoyle’s runner for the International, I will be surprised if Rip Van Winkle faces Sea The Stars again, RVW’s next races could be both at 1m then go for the BC Classic.
The betting would indicate you right and they did say after the Eclipse he would run in the Sussex.
The thing is he wouldn’t need to improve too much to beat Sea the Stars so I wouldn’t be rushing to back anything until confirmed 100% what’s running where.
Mastercraftsman was running on again when he got up to beat Delegator
so he might get 1m2f ok but I find these placments very strange.Rip Van Winkle definitely stays 1m2f and runs over a mile while MCM who is a top miler runs over the longer trip.
Strange
He may run RVW at York, but I think Mastercraftsman is nailed on to go there, and O’Brien confirmed he will run at York thats why the betting is that way.
Comparing Sea The Stars to Zarkava is pretty pointless for me as they seem to have differing winning attitudes for want of a better word. They both ought to be enjoyed for their seperate exploits. We should maybe wait until the end of this season to judge STS more fully but with Zarkava there is still a question mark for me as to how good she was. Only 1 race against animals of a different sex is hardly enough for me to shower her with greatness. I know the race was the Arc but on the whole it was a pretty moderate bunch that she beat. Youmzain is talented but needs things to fall right and it could be argued that had he got earlier he might have made a race of it. Soldier Of Fortune was a consistent G1 performer of similar abilty to Youmzain. Its Gino throws a doubt on the form but maybe has run above itself however was well beaten in two G1 tries previously. Vision D’Etat is a tough G1 performer but arguably better at 10F on better ground. Ask is an average G1 winner although had Look Here been ridden more prominently in this years Coronation wouldn’t have a G1 to his name. On last years form Ask shouldn’t have been within 10 lengths of the winner. Duke Of Marmalade was better of 10F on a faster surface and was campaigned well to win 5 G1’s that season. Getaway, his name says it all. Cima De Triomphe I don’t think is a proper G1 horse, beaten 6 lengths (beaten over ten by STS in the Eclipse). Meisho Samson had seen better days. Kamsin didn’t seem to run its race based on the proximity of Its Gino to the winner but needed soft to heavy ground anyway. Papal Bull has two ways of running, Schiaparelli wasn’t good enough, Blue Bresil was on a day out, Zambezi Sun ran no race and our dear old friend Red Rock Canyon wasn’t there to win. With the odd exception as mentioned above a pretty moderate bunch. Who knows if she would fly by Sea The Stars and debating the point is pretty academic as it obviously isn’t going to happen and personal biases tend to cloud the issue. Its only opinion after all. Its best to enjoy them while you can as they tend not to be around for very long in the good old flat game.
Well I’m without doubt the biggest Zarkava fan on here (unless someone else went to live in France to see her in the Grotte, Pouliches and Diane?) and I have absolutely no idea whether Zarkava would beat Sea The Stars or not. Absolutely none.
Yet Fist states categorically that STS would have won. Incredible.
I think you need to use your imagination more mate and learn to read.
I’m amazed you had the forsight to back her at 7/1 but can’t see she was much superior and achived much much more than Rip Van Winkle who had Sea the Stars geting 5 whacks on his backside to beat him.
Not that it matters much but I know about 10 people who’d take an oath in a court of law that I was adamant from about 10 seconds after the Marcel Boussac until the start of the Arc that she’d win the Arc. And I got a lot better than 7s.
Sea The Stars got there way too early in the Eclipse. Way, way too early.
And Zarkava I don’t believe was whipped in her entire career.
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Comparing Sea The Stars to Zarkava is pretty pointless for me as they seem to have differing winning attitudes for want of a better word. They both ought to be enjoyed for their seperate exploits. We should maybe wait until the end of this season to judge STS more fully but with Zarkava there is still a question mark for me as to how good she was. Only 1 race against animals of a different sex is hardly enough for me to shower her with greatness. I know the race was the Arc but on the whole it was a pretty moderate bunch that she beat. Youmzain is talented but needs things to fall right and it could be argued that had he got earlier he might have made a race of it. Soldier Of Fortune was a consistent G1 performer of similar abilty to Youmzain. Its Gino throws a doubt on the form but maybe has run above itself however was well beaten in two G1 tries previously. Vision D’Etat is a tough G1 performer but arguably better at 10F on better ground. Ask is an average G1 winner although had Look Here been ridden more prominently in this years Coronation wouldn’t have a G1 to his name. On last years form Ask shouldn’t have been within 10 lengths of the winner. Duke Of Marmalade was better of 10F on a faster surface and was campaigned well to win 5 G1’s that season. Getaway, his name says it all. Cima De Triomphe I don’t think is a proper G1 horse, beaten 6 lengths (beaten over ten by STS in the Eclipse). Meisho Samson had seen better days. Kamsin didn’t seem to run its race based on the proximity of Its Gino to the winner but needed soft to heavy ground anyway. Papal Bull has two ways of running, Schiaparelli wasn’t good enough, Blue Bresil was on a day out, Zambezi Sun ran no race and our dear old friend Red Rock Canyon wasn’t there to win. With the odd exception as mentioned above a pretty moderate bunch. Who knows if she would fly by Sea The Stars and debating the point is pretty academic as it obviously isn’t going to happen and personal biases tend to cloud the issue. Its only opinion after all. Its best to enjoy them while you can as they tend not to be around for very long in the good old flat game.
The reason people start making comparison is to try and get to the bottom of how good another horse actually is.
That aside you hit the nail right on the head with a point I made some time ago. You simply can’t judge how good Sea the Stars is until the end of the season.
Horses are judged by what the horses that finished diectly behind them achieve. In his case Delegator and Fame and Glory and Rip Van Winkle.
There’s a big selling job going on throughout racing at the moment. There always have been but I think it’s worse than ever. Every horse that wins a race gets hailed a superstar which keeps the punters interest up.
Again I am not knocking Sea The Stars but I was reading he got a rating on a par with Nashwan which right away made me ask myself "Surely Nashwan never got his rating until after he won the King George?"
To be honest I really don’t know but it had me running of to find some vidoes of Nashwan to remind me how he went about winning the four timer.
He looked more imressive to me than Sea the Stars did but the point was made "what did Nashwan actually beat?"
Ok some horse were just so visually superior like say Mill Reef was was never an issue but Sea the Stars isn’t leaving good horses 15 lengths in his wake. So really there has to be a bit of doubt and I’m told Timeforms rating for the horse is or was provisional (not that I would have a clue if that is significant)
I think John Oxx is a little bit concerned that he doesn’t win his races more impressively as he told Mick Kinane to win the Eclispe as far as he possibly could. Mick Kinane responded by asking him if he was joking saying Sea the Stars would never beat any horse more than a length and a half.
He’s just not a Zarkava-Dancing Brave type of animal who is going to come swooping through and put 3 or 4 lengths between him and good horses and that is what makes me think he would have been beaten very easily by some of the greats of the past. Mick Kinane seems to know the horse has limitations but some judges on here can’t see that.
Anyway time will tell and if he remains unbeaten, Fame and Glory were to win the Arc and Rip Van Winkle goes on to win a couple of Group1 and ends up triumphant in the USA eg no one could argue ea te Stars was a bit special if not the greatest we have seen.
"Fist" wrote: The reason people start making comparison is to try and get to the borrow of how good another horse actaually is.
That aside you hit the nail right on the head with a point I made some time ago. You simply can’t judge how good Sea the Stars is until the end of the season.
Horses are judged by what the horses that finished diectly behind them achieve. In his case Delegator and Fame and Glory and Rip Van Winkle.
There’s a big selling job going on throughout racing at the moment. There always have been but I think it’s worse than ever. Every horse that wins a race gets hailed a superstar which keeps the punters interest up.
Again I am not knocking Sea The Stars but I was reading he got a rating on a par with Nashwan which right away made me ask myself "Surely Nashwan never got his rating until after he won the King George?"
To be honest I really don’t know but it had me running of to find some vidoes of Nashwan to remind me how he went about winning the four timer.
He looked more imressive to me than Sea the Stars did but the point was made "what did Nashwan actually beat?"
Ok some horse were just so visually superior like say Mill Reef was was never an issue but Sea the Stars isn’t leaving good horses 15 lengths in his wake. So really there has to be a bit of doubt and I’m told Timeforms rating for the horse is or was provisional (not that I would have a clue if that is significant)
I think John Oxx is a little bit concerned that he doesn’t win his races more impressively as he told Mick Kinane to win the Eclispe as far as he possibly could. Mick Kinane responded by asking him if he was joking saying Sea the Stars would never beat any horse more than a length and a half.
He’s just not a Zarkava-Dancing Brave type of animal who is going to come swooping through and put 3 or 4 lengths between him and good horses and that is what makes me think he would have been beaten very easily by some of the greats of the past. Mick Kinane seems to know the horse has limitations but some judges on here can’t see that.
Anyway time will tell and if he remains unbeaten, Fame and Glory were to win the Arc and Rip Van Winkle goes on to win a couple of Group1 and ends up triumphant in the USA eg no one could argue ea te Stars was a bit special if not the greatest we have seen.
I’m not ata ll trying to say Sea The Stars is better than Dancing Brave here but you have to give Sea The Stars more credit. In the 2000 he travelled into the race with considerable ease over a trip which was arguably inadequate. In the Derby he quickly put 3 or 4 lengths between him and the field before idling slightly infront. For this reason, we will never know how good he is. You are spot on in saying that we can only judge him on what he has beaten. Delegator seems to get found out in the last half furlong over a mile, but is a high class colt. Fame And Glory, similarly to Sea The Stars nobody really knows how good he is. Rip Van Winkle is a horse who I think will be very hard to beat on his next start. He is still improving and I’m certain there’s more to come from him. I agree with you that we will have a much clearer picture at the end of the season.
This place is as bad as the last time I posted here, which was a little while ago for me.
Fist, you stated that Duke of Marmalade has already been forgotten and will do nothing at stud? Do you know which mares he has covered, how many, the quality of their pedigrees? What do you think makes a great stallion?
Duke of Marmalade was one of the toughest horses of both mind and body in the last ten years and in my opinion will make one hell of a stallion. Footstepsinthesand is another to follow.
Sea the Stars is a champion. Your attempts to come up with arguments to explain away Conduit getting stuffed and you looking a plonker are embarassing.
Take up Carvs offer (Which he must have put up about 20 times now) and take the opportunity to show all of the mug punters on here how it’s done. You never know, you could set up a tipping line after smashing the lizards for six.
PS – I am a massive fan of Sea the Stars. This horse has plenty left in the locker. Rip improved for the 10f. Oratorio like profile on racing and breeding.
Fist, first time logging on since I posted and i’m disappointed you haven’t replied (Not surprised) or set up your tipping thread yet…. Come on Fister
I’ve saved up a betting bank and everything!- Total Posts 17716
Duke of Marmalade is standing at Coolmore for 40,000 Euro a pop. Henry is 65,000 Euro Ravens is 54,000 Euro
If you look into these things you’ll find he will have less rejections than most top stallions.
What Breeders look at which was something that stood out with Nashwan who has a similar profile if not better than Sea the Stars is how did their form stand up.
Duke of Marmalade beat horses that have done very little to frank the form. In fact those who finsihed 2nd to him in his 5 Group 1’s haven’t won a race between them. Not exactly a profile breeders are looking for.
He did beat New Approach who was a massive 6/1 and apparntly in need of the race in the Juddmonte. You backed New Approach BTW if you have forgotten
I’m not trying to explain away Conduit’s defeat to anyone mate.
My assessment of Sea the Stars started way before the Eclipse.
The thing that bugs me about Sea the Stars is his trainer avoiding running him over 1m4f. For me Derby winners should be aimed at the King George and the Arc not a couple of 1m2f races one of which he has little or no chance of running in.
What if he gets beaten in the Juddmonte by one or both of AOB’s will you and others think he is some kind of wonder horse? I think everyone should wait and see. So far he’s had a pretty easy time of things as DOM did but come the latter part of the season many of these horses fall flat on their asses as DOM did as Nashwan did.
The greats go on to become legends…..perhaps Sea the Stars will be viewed as great and comapred to the Brigadier if he can win the Juddmonte and the Irish Champion and the win this mystery to me race that Oxx says he’s going to run him in. Not the Arc or the USA anyone help me here? Until he does he’s on the fence like every other top horse in history was at this stage of his career.
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Duke of Marmalade is standing at Coolmore for 40,000 Euro a pop. Henry is 65,000 Euro Ravens is 54,000 Euro
If you look into these things you’ll find he will have less rejections than most top stallions.
What Breeders look at which was something that stood out with Nashwan who has a similar profile if not better than Sea the Stars is how did their form stand up.
Duke of Marmalade beat horses that have done very little to frank the form. In fact those who finsihed 2nd to him in his 5 Group 1’s haven’t won a race between them. Not exactly a profile breeders are looking for.
He did beat New Approach who was a massive 6/1 and apparantly in need of the race in the Juddmonte. You backed New Approach BTW if you have forgotten
I’m not trying to explain away Conduit’s defeat to anyone mate.
My assessment of Sea the Stars started way before the Eclipse.
The thing that bugs me about Sea the Stars is his trainer avoiding running him over 1m4f. For me Derby winners should be aimed at the King George and the Arc not a couple of 1m2f races one of which he has little or no chance of running in.
What if he gets beaten in the Juddmonte by one or both of AOB’s will you and others think he is some kind of wonder horse? I think everyone should wait and see. So far he’s had a pretty easy time of things as DOM did but come the latter part of the season many of these horses fall flat on their asses as DOM did as Nashwan did.
The greats go on to become legends…..perhaps Sea the Stars will be viewed as great and comapred to the Brigadier if he can win the Juddmonte and the Irish Champion and the win this mystery to me race that Oxx says he’s going to run him in. Not the Arc or the USA anyone help me here? Until he does he’s on the fence like every other top horse in history was at this stage of his career.
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