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Never know when the embroidery may come in – stick with it Gerald.
Managed to find Premonition 1953 St Leger Wilfred Wyatt
Olive & Old Gold hoops Olive cap
got Copes 1954 from ebay but no listing of colours in that edition which went down well however ……. whilst flicking through the section on leading owners these got a specific mention – only ones in the whole book !! may be tempted to get a lottery ticket and see if my luck holds.
cheers
Evening Isinglass. Re your quest, I have a complete set of Copes, and have been through all the colours sections. Nearly everything you have from me came from those. Unfortunately for some of the years you really need, Copes decided not to do "winning owners colours". I have a couple of black and white photos which show versions of the remaining colours you are seeking – do you want these?
1000 1940 Godiva 2nd Viscount Rothermere
The Viscounts Rothermere are still extant so you could try contacting the current incumbent (4th) for information
Contact details for the nobility can be found in Debrett’s, copies of which are held at most reference libraries
And for colours generally I’d imagine the Jockey Club would be able to help:
Re the last post. Racing colours are administered by Weatherbys on behalf of the BHA. This would seem to be the obvious place to go with these kind of questions. Best of luck to those who go this route.
The fascist 1st Viscount didn’t die until 26 November 1940.
Was he stripped of his title, or something?
I was wondering whether the neo-fascist 2nd Viscount was still going under the name Harmsworth when Godiva won the Guineas.
Actually, I’ve just remembered that when I was looking at this a few days ago, there was a reference in the New York Times to Harmsworth’s Godiva winning the 1000 Guineas.
The fascist 1st Viscount didn’t die until 26 November 1940.
Well spotted Gerald
Presumably when Godiva won the Guineas the owner was registered as The Hon. Esmond Harmsworth but for some reason this has been changed to 2nd Viscount Rothermere in the historical record
The proprietors of the Daily Mail fascists and neo-fascists?
Getaway!
I didn’t make the connection between Godiva & Rothermere being a fascist. It’s interesting how much European history you can pick up if you are interested in racing history.
Rothermere didn’t have continued luck with Godiva as she died in her first stud season with out producing a foal.
It wasn’t her fault that her owner supported Oswald Mosely!I wish I could help more with the colours, but the Copes I have are the wrong dates. I always want to find out things myself. I spent last night trying to trace the horse being PTS on the British Pathe site. Rather disturbing footage, & given the content of some previous posts on here, stands to show how far race courses have progressed in this area since 1966. For anyone’s interest the unfortunate horse is Northern Union, Arctic Time-Miss France by Jock, trained by John Oxx & ridden by J Roe. The race was the 1966 Derby. It was relatively easy to trace via 1966 Timeform Annual.
Was he stripped of his title, or something?
nice oneTRF’s Isinglass may be amused to know that horse Isinglass was Godiva’s maternal fourth sire
Being a wartime Guineas anyone know if it was run later in the year than normal?
Don’t understand how I didn’t come across this bit before.
GODIVA (b.f. 1937 out of Carpet Slipper by Phalaris) was bred by Esmond Harmsworth, in whose silks she ran. One of the best of her age at two, at three, she won the New 1,000 Guineas and New Oaks, the latter run at [ N’ket] during World War II. Her run in the Oaks was brilliant, winning by three lengths under apprentice Douglas Marks, who turned in his saddle and urged the other riders to "come on!" after he passed. Her time bested that of the colts in the New Derby, won by Pont l’Eveque the day before, stamping her as probably the best of her crop, colt or filly. That was her final start. Tragically, she was destroyed after contracting septicemia at Fort Union Stud in Ireland later that year.
1,000 GUINEAS TO GODIVA; Harmsworth Racer Wins by Five Lengths From Golden Penny
May 4, 1940, Saturday
Section: Sports, Page 9, 92 words
New York Times. So no, the Guineas weren’t run later.
Blimey , not on the Forum for a few hours and I see you’ve put down your handicrafts and are talking politics – good how one thing leads to another but mind you kids don’t get into trouble.
Blackbarn – thanks for the offer but I won’t bother you for the photos. Have been in contact with Weatherbys and the archivist says they have copies of all Racing Calendars back donkey’s years and that I can either go and look myself or ask that they do some research for a fee per hour – that may be the option soon as I think you folks have just about exhausted all avenues.
Drone – will try as you suggest and send a letter to a member of the current nobility ( not mentioning fascists though !! )
Gerald – the bit about discovering I had a maternal fourth granddaughter wasn’t amusing as suddenly thought I had one more Christmas present to buy ! Not happy she died though .
thanks all , enjoy reading your postings
Hi Isinglass,
sorry to arrive late at the forum, but I am another anorak who has been investigating registered colours of big race winners – and whilst I have only attempted post war races, I have included Grand National, Gold Cup, Champion Hurdle and the Arc – none of which will help you much except:1. Jockey club publish a colours supplement each July and will send an electronic copy if you ask – helps for current day but not historic;
2. Ruffs Guides pre 1980’s included all registered colours – some are still available on ebay and other book sellers (I am awaiting 1948 at present)
3. The National Race Horse Museumare very helpful – they supplied me with some missing jumps colours
4. Horse Racing Ireland (hri.ie)have also been helpful on specifics.
5. http://www2.france-galop.com/couleurs/Default.aspx is in French but allows search of owners names and displays colours – excellent!
6. I have some old racecards that have been a big help!My problem has been foreign trained/owned winners particiularly French & Irish!
With regard to your gaps:
Monade Oaks 1962 – George Goulandris – I contacted Castlemartin Stud (owned by the Goulandrs’) and their reply was:
"The colours were black cap,medium blue top half,and yellow bottom half,however,
there may have been a white star on over the half blue/half yellow at mid point on the front and back.(Those were George Goulandris’ colours in Greece,I am quite sure,but I dont remember if they were modified in France:ie) no star maybe?."Long Look 1965 Oaks – James Cox Brady – hri wrote to me:
"Brady J. Cox – White, black sleeves, red sash & cap – altered to Red & white halved, black sleeves, red cap a bit vague!!Oaks 1952 – Friese – Alexander Keith – Ruffs desribes him as Capt A Keith and colours as Eton Blue. scarlet spots and cap
1963 1000gns Mrs Gertrude Widener – some lists describe her as Mrs P Widener and Ruffs show colours as Red and White stripes, black cap – but couldn’t be certain they are the same
I will investigate your list again (as most of it is outside my era of investigation) and come back with anythin I find.
In the meantime, I am missing a few:
Derby 1949 – Mrs M Glenister / Nimbus
Derby 1946 – Mr J E Ferguson / Airborne
2000 1977 – Niels Schibbye / Nebbiolo
2000 1974 – Nonoalco / Maria Felix Berger
2000 1965 Niksar / Walter Nightingall
1000 1961 Sweet Solera / Mrs Magnus Costello
Arc 1968 – Vaguely Noble / Wilma Franklyn
Arc 1964 – Rex C Elssworth / Prince Royal
plus some Grand NAtiona ones i’ll bore you with another time!Regards
oh! and one more that has been bugging me the colours carried by 1979 St Leger winner Son of Love, owned by Alexis Rolland?
I saw Son of Love win the St Leger as a teenager & the jockey’s colours were yellow I think. The horse was a very unprepossessing individual, the worst looking in the field.
Airborne’s colours were pink & green hoops & pink & green quartered cap, I have a colour photograph of him.The Pathe news site is great. There is some wonderful footage of horses & training establishments as well as races. Particularly one one The Horse which shows arabian stallions at the Crabbet Stud & goes on to show Blue Peter at Mentmore. Also one of Cecil Boyd-Rochford’s string, Tulyar, Horse of the Century & good colour footage of stallions at the Irish National Stud in the early 1960s. Recommended
That British Pathe site is great. I typed in Langholm Common Riding and lo and behold film of the 1933 event when the cornet was one W Armstrong who was my great uncle and I have the whip he was presented with in my study. He was my paternal grandmother’s brother and was the inspiration for my late father’s great enthusiasm for the event.
Also good is the Movietone site and both have great coverage of the Grand National and National Hunt Chase as well as pre-war Punchestown over the famous banks courses.
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