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So the Turf Club of Ireland are going to look into the coup he organised yesterday. If racing is genuinely serious about rooting out corruption then surely they have to throw the book at him. I mean in what other sport would you see something as dodgy as this and for the perpetrator to get away with it? Isn’t this as bad as Amir bowling wides or Higgins throwing a frame or Russians taking drugs? Was this not cheating, pure and simple? These horses had shown nothing. I mean you have to admire the balls of the guy but surely this cannot be allowed?
"this perfect mix of poetry and destruction, this glory of rhythm, power and majesty: the undisputed champion of the world!!!"
If you’re some sort of Damon Runyon addict with an underworld complex then you might admire this guy, but the bottom line is that it is very hard to believe those three horses were raced on their merits prior to last night.
If the trainer isn’t punished it’s a positive green light for every trainer to do this all the time.
I didn’t bet in any of the three races, but I feel sorry for the owners, trainers and jockeys of the three runners up plus any punters who backed them win only.
What chance had you got of winning a handicap by campaigning your horse openly and fairly when you are up against this sort of thing?
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It's the "Millwall FC" of Point broadcasts: "No One Likes Us - We Don't Care"I thought the bigger joke yesterday was Aiden O’Brien’s Best In The World winning the group 3 at Leopardstown. Of course I’m talking out of my pocket but hey ho I still think it was an utter cockspoon of a result.
On The Byrnes Issue, I heard the Irish Bookies took a hammering with that treble whereas a lot of others got off relatively scot free after trimming the prices early.
Simon Clare of Coral said this morning that they hadn’t seen much action at all on the treble.I didn’t see any of these races and I haven’t looked through the form. Was there any good form to go on with his race rivals?
Is it any wonder people don’t punt on racing any more? OK this is at a gash Irish course and wont get that much wider attention but Joe Public is presumably suspicious that this sort of thing is going on all over the place to one extent or another.
If the trainer isn’t punished it’s a positive green light for every trainer to do this all the time.
I didn’t bet in any of the three races, but I feel sorry for the owners, trainers and jockeys of the three runners up plus any punters who backed them win only.
What chance had you got of winning a handicap by campaigning your horse openly and fairly when you are up against this sort of thing?
Don’t hold your breath Ian. This from the man who will be in charge of the “investigation” – “We will look into it further, but the stewards on the night did conduct two improvement-in-form inquiries and examined videos of those horses’ previous runs and were happy with the action they took.” They have no intention of doing a single thing about it.
"this perfect mix of poetry and destruction, this glory of rhythm, power and majesty: the undisputed champion of the world!!!"
Can Irish stewards look at Timeform in the same way as British stewards?
If so am surprised they let it go.Value Is EverythingI thought the bigger joke yesterday was Aiden O’Brien’s Best In The World winning the group 3 at Leopardstown. Of course I’m talking out of my pocket but hey ho I still think it was an utter cockspoon of a result.
What do you think was wrong? I backed Somehow, but can’t see anything wrong with the result Chivers. Best In The World didn’t need to improve much to win and no abnormal betting patterns. Thought Somehow was going to win, just didn’t find much under presure.
Value Is EverythingYeah no worries, I was annoyed with myself. On bare form though I had Best in the world as a no hoper. The price reflected that. It is always hard to judge how much a horse can improve in this stage of their career.
I’m only messing.
Much pious hand-wringing across the sport imo. Had you met Mr Byrnes on the late night ferry and over a drink too many he happened to advise you to get on these three, would you have stormed out yelling loudly that he is a blackguard who should not have a licence?
Much pious hand-wringing across the sport imo. Had you met Mr Byrnes on the late night ferry and over a drink too many he happened to advise you to get on these three, would you have stormed out yelling loudly that he is a blackguard who should not have a licence?
This is the outdated attitude that will see turnover on racing fall and fall and FALL.
I don’t touch Irish racing outside of Group races and this grubby little stunt at Roscommon is the reason why.
And I know many other punters feel the same way.
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It's the "Millwall FC" of Point broadcasts: "No One Likes Us - We Don't Care"It didn’t need Byrnes to brand Irish racing as a dodgy punting medium, yet all their tracks survive and the sport there seems reasonably healthy.
The effects of these coups have always been overstated. Your everyday punter sees Byrnes and his ilk as both Robin Hood (“wish I had been in on it!”) and an arch-villain (“it’s not my bad judgement, it’s bent trainers and jockeys!”). Either way, it doesn’t really bother them. Bookies and the media and a few punters mount the high horse and condemn it but, I return to my scenario: who would reject the whisper from Byrnes and give him a good telling off?
I wouldn’t, would you?
Now that makes more sense to me – and I respect your views generally, btw – and yes same as if you found a bag of money in the street the bank robbers had dropped as they escaped, most people would quietly pick it up.
But is racing that healthy? I do feel the bookies are right and it does put some people off betting on racing.
Not lazy punters who don’t study form and just latch onto gambles, but a lot of people who study form – or would if there was any point in so doing.
If I was the owner of any of the horses that finished second I would say: “if you can’t beat em, join em. Don’t work my horse at home and cheat with him on the track the next year so we too can get a winning handicap Mark and fill out boots at the early prices.”
Everyone will end up cheating and the game will collapse -it’s not sustainable to allow this sort of thing
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It's the "Millwall FC" of Point broadcasts: "No One Likes Us - We Don't Care"It didn’t need Byrnes to brand Irish racing as a dodgy punting medium, yet all their tracks survive and the sport there seems reasonably healthy.
The effects of these coups have always been overstated. Your everyday punter sees Byrnes and his ilk as both Robin Hood (“wish I had been in on it!”) and an arch-villain (“it’s not my bad judgement, it’s bent trainers and jockeys!”). Either way, it doesn’t really bother them. Bookies and the media and a few punters mount the high horse and condemn it but, I return to my scenario: who would reject the whisper from Byrnes and give him a good telling off?
I wouldn’t, would you?
Depends how a betting coup is organised.
If letting the horses run in conditions not right for the horses then no problem. ie If the horses are allowed to do their best in prevailing conditions, punters can judge for themselves whether the horses are suited by conditions and/or whether it’s value to take a chance… And in that case the answer to your question Joe is I “wouldn’t” mind at all.
However, if the horses have NOT been allowed to show what they could do in prevailing conditions of previous races, then imo there’s a big problem with it… In that case the answer to your question would be YES! And I’d go to the authorities to tip them off.
Reading Timeform comments and watching the races, questions need to be asked.
Are you really saying there’s nothing wrong with stopping horses Joe?
Value Is EverythingDelete this if in breech of copyright:
These are some selected Timeform comments from the three horses previous races for Byrnes:
“pushed along briefly end of back straight, never a threat; one to keep an eye on”.
“caught the eye under a considerate ride”,
“always behind; needs another run for a mark”.
“looks one for handicaps later on; raced well off the pace, never on terms”.
Value Is EverythingIt’s worth noting that Timeform apply those suggestive comments to practically every horse who starts out for a gambling yard, with many of the duck egg horses being as average as they look, going on to achieve nothing.
Nope, I’m not saying there’s nothing wrong with stopping horses. I’m saying either put a set of stringent rules in place (and apply them no matter what) or leave things as they have been for centuries and stop moaning.
The former avenue would be almost impossible to execute, so the latter is what we need to live with, and people have done exactly that for a long time.
Ginger, you say that manipulating a handicap mark or a future SP by allowing a horse to run in conditions which do not suit is fine. Why is there nothing wrong with that? How does it differ from pulling one? The fact that many punters will know conditions are not ideal on a particular day and therefore won’t bet does not change the fact that the trainer prevented the horse running on his merits – assuming merits means being given the best possible chance to win. It’s ethically just the same as physically preventing a horse winning.
But, trainers are within the rules even if they run a sprinter in the Ebor. Caveat Emptor. But shouldn’t it be Caveat Bookie or Caveat Handicapper? Both are free to ignore runs outside of the horse’s ideal conditions and/or when there is no market support, assuming the data to judge these is in the public domain.
If coup horses carry lower weights than they should or are made available at bigger prices than they should be, is that the fault of the trainer? I would say it is not. If Timeform can spot a job horse in the making, officials (and bookies) should quite easily be able to do the same.
Equally, if Timeform can spot these, the argument sways back toward Caveat Emptor. If you don’t know enough about race-reading (or don’t care to pay for Timeform), should you be risking cash betting?
As to the moaning bookies, I put this question: Would you rather put up with these occasional coups (BTW, how many don’t come off?) or see every punter in the land educated to Timeform race-reading standard?
I think we know the answer.
It’s worth noting that Timeform apply those suggestive comments to practically every horse who starts out for a gambling yard,
No they don’t LW3, if they did it would be impossible to make a profit from using Timeform.
Value Is Everything
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