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Thought this may be of interest to people if they haven’t already seen them. Interesting that Frankel ran the last mile of his 1m 2f race around a bend in about 1/10th second slower than Excelerbration ran the straight mile.
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…thank you for posting that up…
I was firmly of the opinion that neither Frankel nor Cirrus des Aigles were the best 10f horses in the world at the time – [never mind about the past] – when the ground was very soft. Over 8f there was no question in Frankel’s case of course, but not 10.
I gave that to Orfevre and the sectionals I believe tend to confirm my impression from both the Arc and Champion Stakes, that if Orfevre had been trained for the latter race and not the Arc, he would have run them both down in the final furlong.
Frankel’s last 4f sectionals were:- 12.58 12.00 12.07 12.92
So I’d like to quote some excellent research by Simon Rowlands, who I think is or was connected to Timeform, and I trust his accuracy in this respect.
This is from his betting.betfair blog and edited a little, and I am in no way claiming that he would agree with my interpretation……”The runner-up Orfevre’s performance was as noteworthy on sectionals as in other respects. His 400-metre-to-200-metre time – engineered from the leaders’ sectionals and the deficit he made up – comes in at about 11.6 sec, which was comfortably the fastest by any horse at that stage on Sunday and is remarkably fast for a mile-and-a-half horse running on testing ground.
…What is clear – visually and confirmed by sectionals – is that he is a horse of prodigious ability and with a rare turn of foot”
…using that information, even allowing for a little discrepancy, strongly suggests to me that Frankel would have had his work cut out to hold off this quite incredible, if underrated colt.
In fact, ratings simply do not tell us the whole story with Orfevre, who I think on very soft ground, would have been the best 10-11f horse in the world.Thought this may be of interest to people if they haven’t already seen them. Interesting that Frankel ran the last mile of his 1m 2f race around a bend in about 1/10th second slower than Excelerbration ran the straight mile.
Comparisons don’t really work as one was run on the straight course and the other on the round and as we all know the round course was much softer. The new turf on the straight course is responsible apparently.
If you are interested in the speed ratings for Saturday you should read the Weekender who have Frankel at 134 and Excelebration at 109. He is now responsible for 3 of the top 4 speed ratings ever recorded.
Welcome back UM! Thought you’d pop back sooner or later. I admire your spirit and tenacity. I am sure you are right. Orfevre would have had Frankel for breakfast!!!
"this perfect mix of poetry and destruction, this glory of rhythm, power and majesty: the undisputed champion of the world!!!"
Thought this may be of interest to people if they haven’t already seen them. Interesting that Frankel ran the last mile of his 1m 2f race around a bend in about 1/10th second slower than Excelerbration ran the straight mile.
Comparisons don’t really work as one was run on the straight course and the other on the round and as we all know the round course was much softer. The new turf on the straight course is responsible apparently.
What I was trying to say Joni is, that Frankel’s time for the last mile was superb because it was almost identical to Excelerbration’s, despite the fact that he had to go round a bend and run on softer ground and he had already raced 2f. It was a stunning performance.
Thought this may be of interest to people if they haven’t already seen them. Interesting that Frankel ran the last mile of his 1m 2f race around a bend in about 1/10th second slower than Excelerbration ran the straight mile.
Comparisons don’t really work as one was run on the straight course and the other on the round and as we all know the round course was much softer. The new turf on the straight course is responsible apparently.
What I was trying to say Joni is, that Frankel’s time for the last mile was superb because it was almost identical to Excelerbration’s, despite the fact that he had to go round a bend and run on softer ground and he had already raced 2f. It was a stunning performance.
Apologies for mis-reading it Ken!
"this perfect mix of poetry and destruction, this glory of rhythm, power and majesty: the undisputed champion of the world!!!"
Orfevre’s fast sectional was on a the downhill section in the Arc, which is a lot easier to achieve than running uphill from Swinley bottom. So i wouldn’t get carried away comparing one track with another tbh.
^…no it wasn’t the downhill section, it was in the home straight…
… I am sure you are right. Orfevre would have had Frankel for breakfast!!!
…I just knew you would agree with me…
…I hope you enjoyed your day trip to Ascot, I’m sure I saw you jumping up and down somewhere, on the telly… although I was watching Cheltenham, most of the time…
^…no it wasn’t the downhill section, it was in the home straight…
… I am sure you are right. Orfevre would have had Frankel for breakfast!!!
…I just knew you would agree with me…
…I hope you enjoyed your day trip to Ascot, I’m sure I saw you jumping up and down somewhere, on the telly… although I was watching Cheltenham, most of the time…
It was wonderful thanks UM but you were right – I don’t know what to do with myself now!
BTW I am with you on Orfevre. I think he is a monster and I hope he comes over next year and gains compensation. I am not sure I agree with you on the soft ground issue though as I am convinced he would have won easily on better ground.
His last 8 runs have been over 12f, 15f, 13f, 15f 16f, 11f, 12f and 12f so you better tell the owners they have got his trip all wrong!
"this perfect mix of poetry and destruction, this glory of rhythm, power and majesty: the undisputed champion of the world!!!"
..bearing in mind those races in Japan look slow run affairs to me, with sprint finishes, typical of what they do there – they only lob along most of the race as we can see in the Japanese Derby and Arima Kinen…. The same with the Prix Foy.
In a truer run 12f, over here, on heavy, couldn’t quite see it out. So, yes, I do think at Ascot or Sandown, 10f would be his ideal, rather than 12…
….with Frankel, I notice the elitism continues and this does bother me a little. ”Only the very best mares”…. and what will happen to his colts if they don’t appear to measure up….? are we ever likely to see one gelded, and running in a seller at Newton Abbot…?
Like all these big breeding operations, too many horses just disappear and I have this awful feeling that with Frankel, his reputation will be protected at such a level, there will be so many young animals just cast aside in case it detracts from the esteem in which he is held…
…does that ever occur to you…? or is this unfounded?
…you have wonderful memories that no one can take away from you, so no need to feel down… as we have seen lately, better to hero worship a horse or a dog, than a human…
Like all these big breeding operations, too many horses just disappear
…does that ever occur to you…? or is this unfounded?
This has occurred to me, and has troubled me for a few years. In particular, in my case, the volume of Coolmore youngsters who have just one or two runs in total for Ballydoyle and then simply disappear. What is their fate?
..bearing in mind those races in Japan look slow run affairs to me, with sprint finishes, typical of what they do there – they only lob along most of the race as we can see in the Japanese Derby and Arima Kinen…. The same with the Prix Foy.
In a truer run 12f, over here, on heavy, couldn’t quite see it out. So, yes, I do think at Ascot or Sandown, 10f would be his ideal, rather than 12…
….with Frankel, I notice the elitism continues and this does bother me a little. ”Only the very best mares”…. and what will happen to his colts if they don’t appear to measure up….? are we ever likely to see one gelded, and running in a seller at Newton Abbot…?
Like all these big breeding operations, too many horses just disappear and I have this awful feeling that with Frankel, his reputation will be protected at such a level, there will be so many young animals just cast aside in case it detracts from the esteem in which he is held…
…does that ever occur to you…? or is this unfounded?
…you have wonderful memories that no one can take away from you, so no need to feel down… as we have seen lately, better to hero worship a horse or a dog, than a human…
Perhaps my glasses are rose-tinted but I feel this happens less with Juddmonte. Certainly most of the fillies are retained and added to the portfolio of mares each year. Those colts that don’t make the grade with their assigned Juddmonte trainers invariably end up in the "horses in training" sales. What happens to them then I know not but I don’t think Juddmonte just "cast aside" the poor ones.
I see your point with Frankel but the vast majority of mares he will cover will be Juddmonte ones. As for the non-Juddmonte’s, at £100,000 a cover I suppose it is only natural that he will be sent the quality ones as breeders have to try and recoup their money.
If Frankel is going to be covering 100 odd mares a year it will be impossible to protect his reputation with every one no? Saying that not every Galileo foal turns out to be a Group 1 winner but it hardly dents his reputation does it?
It will be fascinating to see what Frankel produces. Tony Morris and our very own EF will tell us that it is virtually impossible that he will produce one as good as he was – "regression to the mean" is the theory. But my dear old Frankel has always laughed in the face of convention. Tell him something is not possible and he will scoff or neigh or stamp his enormous hooves! What IF though hey?! What IF he passes on those genes. We could be in for a new type of super horse. The breed as we know it could change forever UM! We could even get you switching over from Cheltenham to Ascot!!!
"this perfect mix of poetry and destruction, this glory of rhythm, power and majesty: the undisputed champion of the world!!!"
…then I hope these super horses stay a mile and a half..
…they should at least have given you a share…. all the work you’ve put in these past 2 years…
I think you deserve itThis has occurred to me, and has troubled me for a few years. In particular, in my case, the volume of Coolmore youngsters who have just one or two runs in total for Ballydoyle and then simply disappear. What is their fate?
…it doesn’t bear thinking about does it.? one hears such rumours. Same with Greyhounds, poor little things, I feel so sorry for them… they seem to be fodder for the masses… yet they have such incredible personalities that remain trapped and undeveloped in kennels…
…please could we have sectionals on British racecourses, as standard, sometime soon…. is this asking too much?
I worked with greyhounds 10 years ago and they’re bred as if they’re factory produced. The ones that fail at training ominously disappear and it leaves a dreadful feeling that they’re being euthanised. I left that job because of those reasons. I adore animals and it breaks my heart when I see them hurt.
Greyhounds are beautiful, graceful creatures and I often recommend them to anyone who needs a wonderful pet to look for retired ones. They make fine companions.
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