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And I’m convinced, Sir M Stoute was the trainer for this horse, things probably would have been far different. He was a big raw baby, he did not need training for a Derby. In hindsight, if Stoutey had him, I think he’d be being hailed as virtually as great as his father right now. Henry knew the Derby would blow Frankel to bits. Well being trained for that, when he had not even grown into his frame properly, done Cracksman no favours at all really. It’s hindsight, and Gosden is a genius… But I’d have loved to have seen this horse in Stoutes hands… I think we’d just being seeing how good he is now, and he would have gone on to far greater heights. He’s been retired just as he grown into himself. he needed more time, he needed Stoute.
Really interesting post that Nausered. I think it has some merits too. Stoute would certainly have taken more time with him. Would he have got him to run any better on quicker ground though? Would he have sorted out that temperament? We’ll never know. I wonder how Sir Henry would have campaigned him??
For my part I think Cracksman will be remembered as a great horse when he had his conditions but one who had quirks and who couldn’t be trusted to run on ground quicker than good. He was never beaten when “soft” appeared in the ground description but that could be a problem when it comes to his career as a stallion especially if hot, dry summers are to become the norm.
Anyway he looked an absolute beast yesterday and I just think it is sad that we were denied the chance to see more of him.
"this perfect mix of poetry and destruction, this glory of rhythm, power and majesty: the undisputed champion of the world!!!"
Oh I would have loved to see him with Henry. And to be fair, if bloody cancer had not robbed us of him… He may well have been as Frankels son. I’m not ashamed to say it, but Sir Henry Cecil is probably my hero in life. I’m not even sure why, I’m a cockney, I’ve been in the building trade most of my life, and excelled at a lot of other sports when I was younger. But he is the one that if anyone asked me, “who’s your hero”… It would be him. He would have made Cracksman as good as his father. He needed minding, he is far bigger than Frankel. He was a big gangly baby. I think heat as much as ground was his downfall, when the ground is fast, it’s generally hot. He did not like that. His good run first time up, was when it was cooler, his last exceptional run when it had cooled down. In between when it was hot, not so good. I’m sure it was the camber at Epsom, and not the ground. But who knows. I could not agree more, he should not be retired now, what’s the point. He needed another season, it would have got him a whole lot higher class of mare when he went to stud. He would have won next years Arc. I think now he had grown up fully, if they kept him away from hot conditions, he’d probably go unbeaten.
I don’t think Jack deserves that, Joe. Fair enough his statement was factually incorrect, but has since explained what he meant. Everyone makes mistakes and most people would imo know what Jack actually meant anyway. Look at the words used in the quote you had trouble with and just replace the word “win” with “perform”.
“Very much capable of throwing out some fantastic performances given a perfect set of conditions however, not able to win consistently”.
Makes it sound as if you’re calling someone “lazy” and questioning their racing knowledge because of one word. Ok to disagree with Jack and point out his mistakes, but are you not being a little over-exacting? I know, takes one to know one. LOL
Calling a horse capable of “some fantastic performances” is imo hardly giving the horse “bad rep” anyway. His comment was only about Cracksman’s consistency.
I agree with Jack, Cracksman does not perform consistently, he has not been capable of the same form away from the Champion Stakes.Value Is EverythingCracksman is not Frankel. Cracksman is by Frankel but out of a 9f winner and (importantly for stamina requirements) settles extremely well – he’s nothing but a well bred middle-distance horse. So of course he should’ve been trained for Epsom. Frankel may be by Galileo, but his dam was a sprinter and he didn’t settle in his early races at a mile. Queally a mere passenger in the Guineas… Frankel putting up sectionals over the Rowley mile, faster than the earlier sprinting sectionals of the Group class sprint on the card. ie At the time of the 2011 Derby, Frankel was a miler whose alternative distance (at that stage) was as a Group 1 sprinter. Only by middle of his four year old career had Sir Henry managed to curb Frankel’s enthusiasm enough to up him to 10f. Remember what happened to Dawn Approach in the Derby? Had Frankel ran at Epsom it would’ve been five times worse. You can’t equate Gosden’s decision to run Cracksman in the Derby with not running Frankel. If anything you could equate it with Sir Henry’s decision running Derby victor Commander In Chief. Prior to Epsom running in/winner of (like Cracksman) no better than a Conditions race. Should Commander In Chief not have run at Epsom?
The Derby is a race that brings on a horse, not only physically but mentally.
Am sure if Gosden had his time again he’d do things a little differently. eg Concerned that if running on soft ground in the Dante, Cracksman would have too hard a race and not recover in time for the Derby. Declared a non-runner on the day at York, only for – once racing commenced – it proving not as soft as expected! It would’ve been ok to run and there’s an arguement he lost the Derby because of inixperience. Although what happened in the Corry Cup has since called that in to question. Could the defeat have been down to Epsom’s undulations instead?I can’t remember anyone at the time suggesting Gosden should’ve pulled the 7/2 favourite out due to his stature/inexperience… He did already have experience of Epsom, in a Conditions “trial” on reappearance. Would Stoute really have done anything differently if thinking he had a horse capable of at least placing in Europe’s best three year old race? Ulysses went to Epsom after only a Newbury maiden victory (had run only in maidens – no trial whatsoever). The 8/1 shot blatently couldn’t cope, finishing only 12th. Stoute then kept Ulysses to Group 3 company in his next two races before the Breeders Cup 4th… But this was a horse beaten 23 lengths at Epsom – not like Cracksman. To suggest a horse that finished within a length of winning Europe’s premier three year old race should not have been even trained for the race – is silly… He could easily have won. And if Ulysses had finished as close up at Epsom he’d have gone for the Irish Derby too… Cracksman started 3/1 for that race and – as Steeplechasing said – should’ve won. Should he not have run there either?
Bar the Dante, Cracksman got the campaign his previous form entitled him to.
Value Is EverythingIt’s a very simple thing really, and it gets made very complicated. If you go back, before the race was run, I was saying about his absolutely massive stride. He has a stride straight from his father. That was evident again yesterday as he came off of that home turn. When he had suitable conditions to show his very best, NOTHING over the past two years would have got near him, over 1m2f or 1m4f. Horses still need a bit of luck to be top of the tree champions. If Enable had bad luck, she would not have won two arcs.Cracksman had a bit of bad luck. Again, this year was probably the hottest since records began near enough. For a horse that IMO, is not at his best on quick ground, and whom apparently does not like the heat… He done alright really as Steeplechasing points out. He was the best horse in his Derby, easily, he just did not handle Epsom. When Frankie asked him to go and win the race, he folded and rolled into the rail on the camber. He could not open that stride up on a camber, or on faster ground. When he could open that stride up, as in yesterday, he chews anything up that races against him. There is a specific reason that Roaring Lion went for the mile on his owners day. The stable knew he had absolutely zero chance against Cracksman in the champion.
Nausered, I wonder will Simon Rowlands mention his stride in his upcoming piece for ATR- he is using these figures quite regularly and they are very interesting.
RL wouldn’t live with Cracksman on soft ground over 1m2+ i don’t disagree! Over 1m2 on anything but soft i’d say RL would be hard to beat, but again, it’s all opinions!
Twitter: Jackh1092
Hindsight is 20/20 so make the most of it!Everyone has their preference on trainers, and perhaps some are suited to certain horses more. I do agree with Ginge though, Frankel and Cracksman are different horses, different trips, breeding and as 3yos very different indeed!
Joe, never worry i have slightly misinterpreted your post..
One thing i will say on Cracksman is, i think it’s a shame he’s being retired. I guess it must fall down to the fact they don’t think he will better his form next year? I personally would like to see him campaigned solely over 1m4 on better ground, with the odd drop to 1m2 when its soft like Ascot. The blinkers seem to maybe have done the trick as well.
Perhaps like a few have said on here regarding The Arc, John Gosden could use his persuasian skills and get Mr Oppenheimer to change his mind?
Twitter: Jackh1092
Hindsight is 20/20 so make the most of it!Why would cracksman win the arc? Different trips
Different track
Too many Fillies in the race
Not ascot on soft
Not ascot on soft
Not ascot on softWhoever said about him being the bristol de mai of the flat is absolutely 100% spot on
He cant reproduce his “champion stakes” form anywhere bar the “champion stakes” yes he wins, but not to the same figure he puts up in this, why is the arc still even being mentioned lol
Blinkers
and being compared to frankel, ugh. Come on.It’s all over now, Baby Blue!
I see it as a big mistake not to run Cracksman in the Arc against a very beatable Enable,
and my bottom line is Gosden simply wanted to protect her.
I sincerely hope the same sh.it won’t happen again on May 4th.In response to Jack, its still the case that too many horses are retired too quickly. Sea the stars was perhaps a dreadful example. it sours the game
There is a point when a horse “has nothing more to prove” but that isnt reached by many. What i really hate is the justification for retirements along the lines of “they had no choice”
These are not small syndicates of office workers who have hit lucky in a once in a lifetime opportunity (i would always forgive that). They are billionaires who could never spend the money they already have.
Some might get a kick out the breeding ( a pervy one in some cases no doubt) but theres years for that.
Admittedly the trend has been a little more positive in recent years but any sport that operates on the basis of balance sheet results only is not a sport IMO
I know what you mean Clive but be thankful we not in the era of Golden Fleece who ran four times I think and then off to stud!
Cracksman could’ve been as good as Frankel – Heard it all now. He loves Ascot in the soup!
Great horses win when they should have lost – If he was truly great he’d have won that Irish Derby when things were against him.
Yeah couldnt agree more kev, the greats dont need certain circumstances to win
All comers, all grounds, all beaten.
Does not apply to cracksman, in anyway whatsoever, so comparing him to frankel is a bit silly.
Obviously be nice to see Cracksman as a 5 year old racehorse, but like it or not breeding is also a business.
But although we can have discussions about his effectiveness on good-firm; the fact is his form is currently far better on a soft surface and that means there’s at least a high possibility of needing a soft surface to produce his best. If not a coincidence; If you lot are wrong about being equally effective on good-firm – then he could go through 2019 without a win. ie Had there been a top class horse that showed its form in the Ganay and Corry Cup, he would not have won those races… And with now a known question mark of ground issues, there’s more of a chance he’d be taken on by top class horses and beaten. Plus there’s no guarantee it’ll even be soft in next year’s Arc/Champion Stakes…
But the main reason it’s chancey to keep a horse like Cracksman in training is temperament. At the moment – as I said earlier – it’s a bit harsh to call it a “dodgy temperament”. But even as a three year old often pushed along and needed to be really asked to actually show what speed he has – a lot of horses do. That laziness seemed to have developed in to what to me bordered on idleness in the Corry Cup and Prince Of Wales. Banging his head against the stalls, coltish, sweating, a little indolent behind the stalls – are all indicators he’s not the easiest horse to keep cool. To a degree blinkers appeared to do the trick on Saturday, but still sweated up and ran in snatches. Blinkers usually only work a limited number of times. With a horse showing increasing temperamental aspects to his game, 2019 could’ve made it “dodgy”/impossible… And not only would that hinder a stud career, will almost end it.
Too many horses do retire early, but all things considered the right decision to retire this horse imo.
Value Is Everything
and being compared to frankel, ugh. Come on.
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