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Please can you give "nearly every day" examples how this rule imposes "wholesale withdrawls"?
Gingertipster, You need to do more homework and good reasoning if you hope to change the BHA on this issue rather than produce a mish mash of this and that.
I would put this "issue" on a par with all these doom mongers who keep predicting a death or major disaster from dangerous riding through lenient stewarding of riding incidents.
Both are hypothetical nonsense.You will find examples most days of horses running out of their depth, just had a quick look for you for a couple.
June 2nd H 2.40 Old Firm
June 2nd S 3.30 The Blind Side
June 3rd G 8.25 AB CelebrationYou will find most of them trading at 1000 on Betfair before the race, just look at all of those and you will find plenty that are running out of their depth every week.
If you are going to make a quip about me needing "to do more homework and with good reasoning", Eddie; please read what I’ve actually said. Your three examples are: one claimer, one seller (which are similar to claimers in being uncompetitive, so do not need any change) and a maiden. So your three examples would still be allowed to run.So please tell me how many handicappers entered in the next 5 days would be stopped from running?
Where are the handicappers more than 2 stones out of the handicap? Or even a stone wrong? No doubt there are one or two somewhere, but even if there are; these can easily run in other lower grade races.Simples.
Value Is EverythingI would put this "issue" on a par with all these doom mongers who keep predicting a death or major disaster from dangerous riding through lenient stewarding of riding incidents.
Both are hypothetical nonsense.Any danger of injury or death is very much secondary to the chance of an "ego" runner interfering with the winning chance of a "rival".
Value Is EverythingI would put this "issue" on a par with all these doom mongers who keep predicting a death or major disaster from dangerous riding through lenient stewarding of riding incidents.
Both are hypothetical nonsense.Any danger of injury or death is very much secondary to the chance of an "ego" runner interfering with the winning chance of a "rival".
I don’t quite understand the logic of this, On the flat horses get interfered with, denied a run, bumped, carried wide, jammed against the rails etc quite regularly irrespective of the calibre of the field or the race.
Of course interference can happen at any time in any race Q. But when they are rivals of the same grade there is less of a problem.
It is not the over all calibre of field that is the problem. It is one or two vastly inferior rivals who may weaken and go back through a field just as all around them are speeding up.Value Is EverythingGingertipster,
I’ve given you examples in maidens, claimers, sellers & handicaps (Lady Titticaca June 4th L – Plenilune June 2nd S) without doing much looking but you’re still not satisfied.
There are plenty every week, just look at the form of any horse 1000 on Betfair, you’re sure to find a few.I’m not sure how all this is relevant to your original point about Castlemorris King. There is a safety limit of 20 for the race which is sufficient. Don’t know about you but if I owned one of the favourites for The Derby and there were 13 runners in the race I would prefer as many as possible to be of Castlemorris’s ability rather than Pour Moi’s.
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I always thought Horses signed an equal opportunies form before every race?
This debate seems to have been started by what happened to Carlton House…but the horse who hampered him was Ocean War. Ocean War’s the sort of horse that
could
win the Derby, albeit in a weak year. I don’t honestly believe anyone is saying we should stop him and his ilk from running in the Derby.
Of course, when that happened, Pour Moi was still a fair bit behind CH, who ran well after the incident, anyway.
The way I see it, If the big trainers were willing to take more risks with their horses (that’s risks as in ‘chances’ rather than ‘dangerous stuff’), rather than try to get horses to avoid each other, then we’d probably still have no hopers, but a better class of no hoper.
That’s my opinion, anyway.
BlueSky @pghenn.bsky.social
So don't run, just like the others always do
Ocean War hampered CH because he was, in turn, hampered by a rapidly fading nonentity.
Ocean War had a genuine hope (re-rating) and i don’t think anyone is suggesting he shouldn’t be given the chance to run, the other one had no chance, barring act of God.
Lester Piggott, prior to the race, called for no-hopers to be ‘discouraged’ from running in the Derby. I agree completely.
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Ocean War hampered CH because he was, in turn, hampered by a rapidly fading nonentity.
Ocean War had a genuine hope (re-rating) and i don’t think anyone is suggesting he shouldn’t be given the chance to run, the other one had no chance, barring act of God.
Lester Piggott, prior to the race, called for no-hopers to be ‘discouraged’ from running in the Derby. I agree completely.
This attitude is nonsense, Corm. You’d have stopped
Merry Hampton
from winning in 1887, because he’d never run before. You’d have stopped
Jeddah
in 1898,
Signorinetta
in 1908 and
Aboyeur
in 1913 because they were 100-1 "no hopers".
You’d have stopped
Terimon
finishing 2nd to Nashwan because he was a 500-1 maiden "no hoper". How ridiculous!
They’ve paid their money, and they take their chance – unless there are 20 better rated horses declared. End of story. And that’s exactly how it should be.
Normally I’m the one rooting for the no-hopers, but I couldn’t even make up reasons why Castlemorris King maybe, possibly, could have won. At least Marhaba Malyoon won a race; Castlemorris King has never finished better than 5th in his career. I see no reason why there can’t be some sort of minimum criteria for entries into the Derby. You can’t tell me that there isn’t a single 3yo in England with better form than CK and connections who want to run in the biggest classic event of the year.
For me, yes I agree that Group races should be made up of the very best horses.
But the only way to do that, in my opinion, is to have better horses fill up the entry. 17 grand for sixth place, were there seriously no trainers with horses rated 100+ (maybe even as far down as 90) who fancied a crack at Listed esque money?
As a little aside, Castlemorris King did beat a horse rated 26lbs higher by over 50 lengths!
(same point as the poster above almost, but I typed it so I’m not wasting it!
)Normally I’m the one rooting for the no-hopers, but I couldn’t even make up reasons why Castlemorris King maybe, possibly, could have won. At least Marhaba Malyoon won a race; Castlemorris King has never finished better than 5th in his career. I see no reason why there can’t be some sort of minimum criteria for entries into the Derby. You can’t tell me that there isn’t a single 3yo in England with better form than CK and connections who want to run in the biggest classic event of the year.
The other one may have won a race but he finished 55 lengths behind CK yesterday!
I’m sure there were hundreds if not thousands with better form but their entries were conspicuous by their absence!Corm, I would never call any horse a nonentity,even in the case of the most humble plater, someone loves them & hopes they may turn into a swan.
Addington Boy, Suny Bay, Earth Summit, The Grey Monk, Lord Gyllene, Dublin Flyer, Scotton Green, I wonder which ‘no hoper’ strutted his stuff against them, and oh what joyous days we had watching him.
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I see no reason why there can’t be some sort of minimum criteria for entries into the Derby.
How, when entries are made when the colts are yearlings? And then there is History, Miss Woodford. Look at my post for some of the great names from the role of honour which you’d have excluded without a run.
Merry Hampton
had never run before the day.
Terimon
is not that long ago, either, and he was a 500-1 complete no-hoper who suddenly got the hang of things in the Big One and never looked back.
It’s an open horse race to sort out the 3yo pecking order, not an exclusive portion- and quality-controlled bit of
haute cuisine
by invitation only like the Breeders Cups. All comers must be welcome if The Derby is to fulfil its purpose.
Merry Hampton ran 124 years ago Pinza. The game has changed since then. Many, many thousands more horses, much more competitive these days. So it does not apply.
Terimon does apply.
Bringing in a rule like this (or similar) encourages trainers to run their horses more often and over the right trip in the early part of the season. Surely a good thing?It is not neccessarily true to say Terimon would not have been able to run.
Had the rules been different in 1989 I am sure Clive Brittain would have made several attempts at "qualifying" the horse. By running him in a race more inclined to show his true ability. ie A better quality race over a trip more in line with pedigree. By Bustino, dam second in Italian Oaks. For example, a staying bred horse is highly unlikely to run well in a 6 furlong Group 1 at two. And is less likely to show his true ability in a maiden at 10 furlongs than a handicap or Graded race at the same trip. Don’t know what race his first 10f start was in, but the second was a maiden.Does anyone know what Terimon’s rating was before the Derby?
You say the Derby is to find out the 3 year old pecking order. Castlemorris King and Mahaba Malyoon had already shown they were not good enough. We knew their place in the pecking order.
Value Is EverythingTerimon does apply.
Bringing in a rule like this (or similar) encourages trainers to run their horses more often and over the right trip in the early part of the season. Surely a good thing?It is not neccessarily true to say Terimon would not have been able to run.
Had the rules been different in 1989 I am sure Clive Brittain would have made several attempts at "qualifying" the horse. By running him in a race more inclined to show his true ability.Maybe they wouldn’t bother and run in the French Derby instead, many horses lowly rated have been fancied, well backed or run well over the years. Pukka & St Expedit are two recent ones that spring to mind, so you would be excluding many horses with this daft scheme.
Ginger,
You seem to believe Terimon was an out and out stayer that showed improvement in the Derby as it was his first run at 12F. That hardly fits with his subsequent career, which included two wins in the Earl of Sefton Stakes over 9F and one in the International over 10F. He never won a 12F race in his career.
His rating in a handicap at the start of his 3-y-old season was 81, and I estimate he would have been given a mark in the mid 80’s for his maiden win at Leicester. The two horses he beat there in a tight finish both won next time and were rated in the low 90’s, but that wasn’t until after the Derby.
The whole idea of eliminating horses from the race on ability grounds is daft – there are always going to be horses that don’t stay and are dropping back and potentially causing interference, regardless of their rating. Finding a way round is part of the test for horse and jockey in this race, the same as any other.
Entirely different from NH races, where interference at the obstacles becomes a safety issue.
AP
Ginger,
You seem to believe Terimon was an out and out stayer that showed improvement in the Derby as it was his first run at 12F. That hardly fits with his subsequent career, which included two wins in the Earl of Sefton Stakes over 9F and one in the International over 10F. He never won a 12F race in his career.
AP
No, I am fully aware Terimon was not a stayer AP. Was merely pointing out running the horse at 6f in the Middle Park was never going to show his true worth. Quite a lot of middle distance / staying bred horses do show form at 9 furlongs. But very, very few do at 6f. Before the Derby Terimon had run twice at 9f or further, at least one of those in a maiden.
As you know, a horse is also less likely to show his true form in a maiden than a handicap, especially when held up. It was not until making all in the International, Roberts riding the other jockeys to sleep, that Terimon made the running.
It is true Terimon did not win at 12 furlongs in his career. But as you know, a horse does NOT have to win to show his form. Excellent second to In The Groove, beating Rock Hopper and Derby winner Quest For Fame in the Coronation Cup (also beat latter in the International). And fourth to Generous in the King George.
Terimon was not a stayer, but he did need further than a mile and was fully effective at 1 1/2 miles
Value Is Everything
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