- This topic has 33 replies, 14 voices, and was last updated 14 years, 2 months ago by
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Sorry Maxilon 5 but I don’t understand why you incorrectly perceive me to be a "self hater".
You seem to think that you have a right to edit / control my views.
I thought that the purpose of this forum was to exchange views and have a healthy debate.
You again incorrectly perceive me to be implying some form of skullduggery. If you actually take the time to read what I actually posted you will see that I was highlighting an interesting market move.
If you also read any of my previous posts you will also see that they are on a variety of subjects and have no "agenda".
Please feel free to stand corrected – although I am always happy to hear other views (unlike some people)No need to get ar sy with me, Coggy. I didn’t even notice who started the thread yesterday such was my frustration.
As for controlling/editing your views, I’ve only ever posted to you once. I have no idea what your views are.
Post what you want, but I reserve the "right" to criticise those views.
I firmly believe that there is a strong correlation between perception of the alleged corruption within horse racing and self hatred. As I say, I have no idea whether you’re a self-hater or not. You say not. That’s fair enough – I wasn’t specifically talking about you.
While we’re talking "rights", I’ve got a "right" to enjoy the forum without logging into a big conspiracy theory every time I open a thread. It’s tedious. It’s boring. It’s depressing. It does no-one any good at all, least of all the forum itself. I’m just glad that these views are being confronted throughout the forum.
Please feel free to stand corrected
Ditto.
I appreciate your right to reply, and replies / views were exactly what I wanted when I started the thread.
It is not intended to be a conspiracy theory.
You will note that I highlighted the fact that the horses rating had dropped, and that it had also changed stables as possible reasons for an improvement in form. We are all aware that some animals improve simply due to a change of scenery and / or training methods.I firmly believe that there is a strong correlation between perception of the alleged corruption within horse racing and self hatred. As I say, I have no idea whether you’re a self-hater or not. You say not. That’s fair enough – I wasn’t specifically talking about you.
Not just pocket talkers but self haters too! I dare say they also engage in a bit of kiddie fiddling when they’re not shouting abuse at the TV down the local bookies.
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I firmly believe that there is a strong correlation between perception of the alleged corruption within horse racing and self hatred. As I say, I have no idea whether you’re a self-hater or not. You say not. That’s fair enough – I wasn’t specifically talking about you.
Not just pocket talkers but self haters too! I dare say they also engage in a bit of kiddie fiddling when they’re not shouting abuse at the TV down the local bookies.
I firmly believe that there is a strong correlation between perception of the alleged corruption within horse racing and self hatred.
While that’s your opinion, it’s a twisted and preposterous one.
While we’re talking "rights", I’ve got a "right" to enjoy the forum without logging into a big conspiracy theory every time I open a thread. It’s tedious. It’s boring. It’s depressing. It does no-one any good at all, least of all the forum itself. I’m just glad that these views are being confronted throughout the forum.
You haven’t got the "right" to enjoy anything you read on a public forum. Your sole right is to choose to log on…or OFF. If reading a few posts that you don’t agree with makes you "depressed", I suggest you either take some time out, or the more drastic measure of avoiding the thread.
I have no desire (and I’m sure I’m not alone) for TRF to be seen as a forum where challenging issues are swept under the carpet.
But, equally, I have no desire (and I’m sure I’m not alone here either) to see TRF turned into a betfair-forum-esque place where fingers are pointed (however subtly) at jockeys/trainers/connections on a daily (hourly?) basis.
If we’re to have threads of a similar ilk every time a gambled on horse wins it’ll become a dull place indeed.
Gambles are part and parcel of the game. ‘Insiders’ (trainers/owners) profiting from knowledge not in the public domain relating to a horse’s well being or preferred distance or ground have been with us for centuries. It’s part of the puzzle, always has been. If you don’t accept that then you’ve been following the sport under an illusion.
What is ‘newsworthy’ is where that activity steps beyond the, admittedly, blurry line that separates the well handicapped horse finally getting a mark and ground to show it’s best, under the corresponding weight of support from connections, for example, and the downright fraudulent.
There’s a clear difference between the Am I Blue case (with all it’s interesting and intriguing detail) and the ‘run-of-the-mill’ gamble that occurs daily/weekly.
I DO think there is an integrity issue in racing, we’d all surely recognise and be naive not to accept that,
and I think that TRF is an arena where that aspect of the sport should be discussed openly and frankly.
However, I DON’T think we need a separate thread every time a gamble goes in (unless, like the Am I Blue case, it clearly impacts the wider discussion).
Maxilon 5 wrote
I firmly believe that there is a strong correlation between perception of the alleged corruption within horse racing and self hatred.
I was amazed reading that statement. Are you a psychiatrist? Can you direct me towards any diagnostic evaluation done on this? It would be a fascinating read.
cormack15 wrote
I DO think there is an integrity issue in racing, we’d all surely recognise and be naive not to accept that, and I think that TRF is an arena where that aspect of the sport should be discussed openly and frankly.
However, I DON’T think we need a separate thread every time a gamble goes in (unless, like the Am I Blue case, it clearly impacts the wider discussion).
Thank you.
Coggy, no problem.
Onthesteal
I’ll interact exactly how I choose with this forum until told otherwise by the people who own it. Not by you.
Nor1
If you’re interested in a primer, try and track down "Easy Money" by David Spanier or "Compulsive Gamblers" by Mark Dickerson. Any Freud primer will be of some assistance too. Enlightening reading.
Cormack 15. Thanks for the clarification and the intervention.
Max’s remarks were guaranteed to attract strong uppity denial
he’s right
there but for the grace of whoever go you and I
I hate this, I hate myself, gimme more and more of it
gambling, drink, other drugs; whatever crutch some folk rely on to take them out of themselves for a fleeting buzz
this grey world lit-up for a second, minute, hour
the up is transient, the down long long long
why do you bet TRFer?
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Max claimed that he had a ‘right’ to enjoy the forum and Onthesteal simply responded to that remark by claiming that no such ‘right’ exists; only the ‘right’ to log on and form opinions.
The forum doesn’t exist to satisfy Max’s needs, making Onthesteal perfectly correct in his observation. Max is, of course, free to ‘interact’ as he pleases, but he can’t lay down the law to others on a premise without foundation and then react so strongly to a sensible counter-argument.
As for conspiracy theorists being self-haters; I don’t think so. Self-hate is a deep-rooted and complex subject that doesn’t link intrinsically to any one aspect of life. It is true to say that some compulsive gamblers have low self-esteem and bet as a form of escapism, but I see little (general) correlation between either addictive or compulsive behaviour and the ability to identify a potentially anomalous result due to the presence of particular, key indicators.
The threads to which Max has taken offence haven’t been borne of a losing bet (surely the mark of a so called self hater). Questions have been raised about two results that, on the reasonable interpretation of racecourse and market evidence, could be considered anomalous and hence worthy of further discussion. Nothing more, nothing less. Had any thread been created through rage or a desire for retribution, the anger would be apparent. That hasn’t been the case in the breaking down of the victories of Am I Blue and Cashel Blue.
Far from it.
I’ve spoken to Max at length in the past and found him to be articulate, committed, intelligent and engaging. He retains an admirable passion for the sport, something that remains evident in everything he writes. I can only conclude that previous contributions have been out of character, but playing amateur pyschiatrist really isn’t my thing. He’s entitled to his opinion, as Onthesteal is to his; as unlikely as I am to ever be the voice of reason, the (sometimes) vicious mudslinging simply isn’t uncalled for.
AJ, thanks for your calm and considered post and also for your kind words.
Let me explain something:
I have never posted at the Other Place. I dislike it intensely but I was once not above reading it regularly.
As Zorro once wrote: “the place seems full of unhinged and pathologically dangerous people” and I have always agreed with that assessment.
Several members of our group have been abused on there as you know – one quite seriously.
When I was a reader, no subject in racing was below the belt, nothing was taboo. No jockey was safe, no trainer’s reputation left intact. There was no notion of friendship, of cameraderie. There was a sense of loathing in every thread, the very worst aspect of unbridled mascuilinity permeating the place, a cynical, sadistic, almost permissive Lord of the Flies environment.
Every race was analysed to death and if one of the membership lost, then woe betide the jockey. Who, of course, were all cheats. If a poster had a good day, they were invariably abused as aftertimers and liars. The pculture was clearly sanctioned from above too – I once read a post about a moderate trainer (now retired) accused (falsely and wildly) of a heinous crime against horses and when I checked back a day later the thread was still there. (I understand activities are more tightly moderated on the forum than they once were.)
I enjoy The Racing Forum, AJ, as you do. I genuinely believe Cormack does a great job and that the place has vast potential for young writers, for thinkers, for pros and amateurs alike. Look at its potential. Look at graysonscolumn. Going from strength to strength in the industry partly as a result of his interaction here.
You’re a top quality writer – as good as anyone here – and I’m sure you can see the potential of the place as a force for good and a repository for new talent and for art.
What good does it do to have a stream of posters constantly spewing negativity onto the board? Unchallenged? Where would that leave us in the end?
Maybe I’ve been over defensive – I’m not perfect and have a short fuse as you know – but the day when this place becomes like the Other Place will be a sad day indeed and this week I wanted to stand up against that possibility.
If tomorrow, at the Leger Festival, a horse is punted from 33/1 to 6/1 like Daring Times was in 1996 – a South Sea Bubble-style punt which made national news and which every punter with access to their kid’s piggy bank joined in with – then someone, without my protest, would have posted about it in negative terms on here. Just like they would at the Other Place.
How far can we let standards slip?
I hate talking about a concept such as the “good of the forum,” because it isn’t my place, but ask yourself a question, AJ. Where have the Talking Heads people gone this summer? The “celebs”? The journalists? Who’s posting? I can name ten posters I enjoy reading who have disappeared. It’s been a dismal summer on the board and I’m hoping its because over the years, the place has become more of a Jumps society than a Flat one.
But in the end, it won’t really matter if the preferred sport of choice on TRF is Mongolian Goat racing if every second post is written by a cynic, or a conspiratorialist.
Because after a while, no-one will be reading.
To conclude – and sincere apologies for the long post – I put inverted commas about the word rights in my post for a good reason – as an indication of irony.
And also, I unreservedly withdraw the remark about self-haters which has upset so many people.
As for viciousness, the attack on me by Onthesteal (and possibly Glenn, I can’t work that out), was worse than anything I wrote over the past two days and its probably best if we avoid each other for the time being, again for the good of the forum.
Regards
Max
It was 20 years ago at the Lincoln meeting that Daring Times was punted in the Shaftebury Stakes (very fitting).
If you want to know what was happening 20 years ago at the Leger festival, this is the place to look:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=o_l60uTYG1k#t=1m18s
If that race happened today, before the dope tests became known, I dare say Big Mac would be called a nonce here for claiming the betting stunk (as he did at the time) and anyone posting about it on a forum would be labelled a pocket talker.
It’s a common tactic for those who say everything in the garden is rosey to play the man not the ball. Just look at what happened to the whistleblower from the video – Roger Buffham.
As for viciousness, the attack on me by
Onthesteal
(and possibly Glenn, I can’t work that out), was worse than anything I wrote over the past two days and its probably best if we avoid each other for the time being, again for the good of the forum.
So that leave cretinous little me, then….Astonishing!
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