- This topic has 36 replies, 20 voices, and was last updated 11 years, 6 months ago by
.
- Posts
Reading a post on the Big Buck’s thread there was a reference to BB perhaps having broken horses like Punchestowns.
They used to say Arkle broke Mill House’s heart.
Do you think horses have the emotional capacity to feel humiliated or psychologically battered by not being able to catch a rival?
Does a horse even see another one as a rival? Racehorses are not competing for food, although it might be argued that some genetic/historic drive compels them to compete not to end up as food by leaving others behind for predators?
But even that tactic might be questionable; many would see the safest place to ‘hide’ would be in the middle of the herd.
If only they could talk!
Joe
This is an excellent point Joe. People have lambasted the form of those who have subsequently gone chasing after trying and failing to beat the mighty Big Buck’s. I’ve never been one for that argument, as the horses he conquered did look genuinely top class at one stage or another.
I think it is possible.
Big Buck’s beat Punchestowns, Time For Rupert and Grands Crus when they gave their all in trying to beat him. All three swatted away inferior opposition before their real tests in the RSA at Cheltenham. When put under a similar level of pressure in the RSA, all of them folded very quickly indeed. It is as if they didn’t want to endure that kind of pain and exhaustion again.
I truly believe My Way De Solzen was ‘broken’ by Kauto Star in the Betfair Chase, too. He cantered all over everything at every distance in his novice season. He sauntered up alongside Kauto Star at Haydock as if expecting the same, but got outjumped and out-run – never to be the same again.
Maybe this argument is too simplistic, though. Punchestowns was lame only weeks before Cheltenham and Nicky Henderson may have been reckless to run the horse at all. Time For Rupert apparently damaged his lungs in the RSA. Grands Crus has a breathing problem. Even so, could it be that giving absolutely everything in pursuit of Big Buck’s was the catalyst for these issues?
Can one horse ‘break the heart’ of another?
He or she certainly can if you listen to enough race commentaries by Richard Hoiles.
It’s one of his favourite phrases. Stewart Machin has also been known to use it (makes a change from the puns).
It’s complete rubbish. One horse does not "break the heart" of another.
Punchestowns, Time For Rupert and Grands Crus all did well early in their novice chase careers – so had no problem getting over their defeats. They all then got injuries/blood vessel/breathing problems.
Punchestowns reportedly on his toes before the RSA, lost a shoe during the race, didn’t jump anywhere near his best and returned lame. Rarely seen afterwards, probably due to physical injuries.
Time For Rupert scoped badly in January after two impressive novice chases and then broke a blood vessel in the RSA. Many horses who break blood vessels are never the same.
Grands Crus put up a cracking performance in the Feltham, one of the best you’ll ever see from a novice at that time of year. Like Time For Rupert he wasn’t seen on a racecourse between December and the Festival. Can’t remember a reason forthcoming, but I am skeptical when trainers say they’re going straight for the Festival with a novice (experience counts). Did he have a training setback? Ran in similar fashion in the RSA to his subsequently disappointing Paddy Power effort. Grands Crus has now had a breathing operation, which suggests it wasn’t Big Buck’s breaking his heart.
Some might think these three horses physical problems might have been caused by a "broken heart". However, the most famous "broken heart" in recent years is that of Kauto Star. So called "Broken" by Denman in the 2008 Gold Cup. Yet it was Denman who had the heart problems afterwards.
People/punters want to attribute human emotions to racehorses, it helps to liven things up a bit, journalists and commentators needing to enthuse the audience and bring atmosphere home. Therefore, to talk of "broke the heart" does help to describe atmosphere and what it
seems
like to humans. So it’s not wrong to do so. Metaphor or similie rather than truth.
Another time "broken hearts" come in to things are with front runners. Horses are pack animals, some natural leaders and some followers. Some need to dominate/race prominently. If taken on in front it can "break the horse’s heart"; or rather don’t like being headed and sulk. Take a look at Carruthers. If allowed to lead or have a clear, unhindered sight of the front he runs a descent race and tries his damndest to remain there. However, if unable to take that prominent position (as Saturday) surrounded by rivals – he’ll give up.
Value Is EverythingReading a post on the Big Buck’s thread there was a reference to BB perhaps having broken horses like Punchestowns.
They used to say Arkle broke Mill House’s heart.
Do you think horses have the emotional capacity to feel humiliated or psychologically battered by not being able to catch a rival?
Does a horse even see another one as a rival? Racehorses are not competing for food, although it might be argued that some genetic/historic drive compels them to compete not to end up as food by leaving others behind for predators?
But even that tactic might be questionable; many would see the safest place to ‘hide’ would be in the middle of the herd.
If only they could talk!
Joe
The idea of an emotional capacity or humiliation is nonsense.
It doesn’t break the heart. Heart is a nonsensical idea when discussing horse racing.
What is plausible, is that simply a very hard race has taken it’s toll. Physical exertion has left it’s mark for whatever reason.
It has nothing to do with heart. Horses are not humans.
Same thing though it is a metaphor and does happen,ie.. hard race causing problems which can affect the heart.Probably one of the most famous and epic battles in horse racing was Bonecrusher v Our Waverley Star in the 1986 Cox Plate both could be close to putting in the champion bracket prior to the race.Neither of the horses won a race after.They ‘broke’ each others heart.You can google Bonecrusher v Our Waverley Star 1986 Cox Plate and see for yourself
I do think horses can be affected by being beaten. As a herd animal, horses establish a hierarchy within the herd by virtue of their position in it. The dominant mare will always be at the head of the herd and will prevent other horses passing her (by biting them if necessary). The other horses come to accept her dominance and thereafter do not try to get in front of her.
Obviously racing is a much more artificial herd and the establishment of a hierarchy cannot be achieved in such a clear cut way during the short timespan of a race but I can still see that it is perfectly possible for a horse which had previously believed it was the dominant horse (because it was used to winning) having its sense of dominance shattered by being beaten. I think this effect is particularly strong in good horses because it is much more of a shcck to the system.
This effect can even happen at home on the gallops. I’ve heard of good horses having their sense of dominance crushed by being beaten by a stablemate.
I think it’s also why low grade horses seem to ‘win in their turn’ because none of them have that sense of dominance because they are used to being beaten.
The idea of an emotional capacity or humiliation is nonsense.
It doesn’t break the heart. Heart is a nonsensical idea when discussing horse racing.
What is plausible, is that simply a very hard race has taken it’s toll. Physical exertion has left it’s mark for whatever reason.
It has nothing to do with heart. Horses are not humans.
I would agree with that, I’ve noticed when commentators or pundits use it they only do so in decent class races, as though the same wouldn’t apply in lower class races.
Does a horse always know if it’s won and were the winning post is, it could have problems at tracks like Sandown with more than one post and what about when there’s an on the nod photo finish?
Reading a post on the Big Buck’s thread there was a reference to BB perhaps having broken horses like Punchestowns.
They used to say Arkle broke Mill House’s heart.
Do you think horses have the emotional capacity to feel humiliated or psychologically battered by not being able to catch a rival?
Does a horse even see another one as a rival? Racehorses are not competing for food, although it might be argued that some genetic/historic drive compels them to compete not to end up as food by leaving others behind for predators?
But even that tactic might be questionable; many would see the safest place to ‘hide’ would be in the middle of the herd.
If only they could talk!
Joe
The idea of an emotional capacity or humiliation is nonsense.
It doesn’t break the heart. Heart is a nonsensical idea when discussing horse racing.
What is plausible, is that simply a very hard race has taken it’s toll. Physical exertion has left it’s mark for whatever reason.
It has nothing to do with heart. Horses are not humans.
You think a horse does not have an emotional capacity? They can get depressed you can see a change.
I would agree with that, I’ve noticed when commentators or pundits use it they only do so in decent class races, as though the same wouldn’t apply in lower class races.
Does a horse always know if it’s won and were the winning post is, it could have problems at tracks like Sandown with more than one post and what about when there’s an on the nod photo finish?
I notice in a variety of sports. Heart is a nothing term to me. It is usually a term aimed towards someone who has won by a close margin, as if to imply that the runner up wanted it less. Usually this is not the case, they simply had a slightly smaller capacity for performance.
The majority of the time, when the word heart is applied in horse racing, the best horse wins. The 2nd horse tried its best too, but simply didn’t have the capacity to win.
Heart is also linked to desire. There is no tangible way to measure the desire of a horse, or if that notion even exists, thus its application is bizarre and pointless.
I understand why commentators use it, even if it is incorrect, simply because it’s applied usually in dramatic big races, and as such, human emotion and excitement overcomes cognitive thinking. The use of the term in every day discussions regarding horses is of course nonsense.
The point is being missed,total exertion can cause heart strain and also a horse can lose confidence when they are pushed to the limit and not try from then on,so the poster has valid points that do exist.
The point is being missed,total exertion can cause heart strain and also a horse can lose confidence when they are pushed to the limit and not try from then on,so the poster has valid points that do exist.
Heart is being applied in a more idealistic and romantic view here. Not literally heart, but what it represents ; desire, determination, will, courage, tenacity, the will to win. All concepts that are redundant here.
Total exertion can cause many issues (Heart related issues are one), although i’d assume that wasn’t what was meant by the thread title.
People must remember that many human athletes lose form and never regain their peak ability ; ability that is often shown for a limited time.
The answer to the question posed is a resounding yes, although I would use broke his ( or her ) heart term as a metaphor for affecting the confidence of another horse ( in this case ), and most certainly instilling that animal with an inferiority complex – especially when meeting their nemesis and erstwhile conqueror on the racecourse.
Mill House, who beforehand was deemed invincible, was never the same horse after Arkle beat him in the Saturday afternoon Gold Cup showdown at Cheltenham back in 1964.
Remember Sham, the very good American colt, who ( just like Mill House ) beat his greatest rival during their first meeting, yet when Secretariat gained his revenge in the Kentucky Derby, Sham seemed to sense that he would never defeat Big Red again.
Then of course there is the case of two horses breaking each other’s heart. Grundy and Bustino. Their epic King George duel at Ascot more or less finished both horses. The victor, Grundy ran one more time, finishing fourth, and Dick Hern’s fine looking colt, Bustino, never ran again and was retired.
Gambling Only Pays When You're Winning
The answer to the question posed is a resounding yes, although I would use broke his ( or her ) heart term as a metaphor for affecting the confidence of another horse ( in this case ), and most certainly instilling that animal with an inferiority complex – especially when meeting their nemesis and erstwhile conqueror on the racecourse.
Mill House, who beforehand was deemed invincible, was never the same horse after Arkle beat him in the Saturday afternoon Gold Cup showdown at Cheltenham back in 1964.
Remember Sham, the very good American colt, who ( just like Mill House ) beat his greatest rival during their first meeting, yet when Secretariat gained his revenge in the Kentucky Derby, Sham seemed to sense that he would never defeat Big Red again.
Then of course there is the case of two horses breaking each other’s heart. Grundy and Bustino. Their epic King George duel at Ascot more or less finished both horses. The victor, Grundy ran one more time, finishing fourth, and Dick Hern’s fine looking colt, Bustino, never ran again and was retired.
Completely agree – Horse have character like humans and as such can be deeply affected by heavy losses or be unable to beat certain horses but hammer others.
This is anthropomorphic nonsense; how would handicaps function if the beaten horses had their hearts "broken." Even Arkle was beaten a few times giving away lumps of weight; did he know the horse ahead of him was receiving 2 stone? Did it break his heart?
http://horsetalk.co.nz/2012/09/10/resea … MJYG4Mz1Fc
Horses might be a useful model for studying animal depression and provide insights into the human condition, French researchers suggest.
Scientists at the University of Rennes 1 came to the conclusion following what they described as a pioneering study.
Researchers Carole Fureix, Patrick Jego, Séverine Henry, Léa Lansade and Martine Hausberger set about evaluating the potential of domestic horses in their usual environment to serve as an animal model for depression research.
The researchers, whose findings have been published in the open access journal, PLoS ONE, said recent reviews had questioned current animal models of depression, in which depression had been induced.
The need was recognised for models of mood disorders based on animals living under natural conditions, they said.
The five researchers observed the spontaneous behaviour of 59 French riding-school horses in their home environment.
“Our observations of horses in their usual domestic environment have led us to spot individuals displaying a particular behavioural and postural profile that presents strong similarities with a ‘depressive syndrome’,” they said.
They focused on what they called immobility bouts of apparent unresponsiveness, in which the horses demonstrated a withdrawn posture. The researchers evaluated the horses’ responsiveness to their environment and their anxiety levels, and analysed plasma cortisol levels – a key indicator of stress.
Twenty-four per cent of the horses showed the withdrawn posture, also characterized by a fixed gaze, head and ears fixity – a profile that suggested a spontaneous expression of “behavioural despair”, the researchers said.
When compared with “non-withdrawn” horses from the same stable, withdrawn horses appeared more indifferent to environmental stimuli in their home environment but reacted more emotionally in more challenging situations. They exhibited lower plasma cortisol levels.
The withdrawn horses all belonged to the same breed – French Saddlebreds – and females were over-represented.
An animal model might prove to be useful especially if the environmental conditions offered to animals share features with environmental conditions known to induce depression in human, they wrote.
“Domestic horses encounter chronic stress, including potential stress at work, which can induce behavioural disorders.”
Domestic horses, for example, may face social and space restriction in their daily lives. They may have to work on a daily basis and have ‘interpersonal’ interactions with a ‘boss’ who is the human who manages or rides them.
“Horses’ studies, mimicking in animals conditions in which human depression is known to occur, might then open a ‘window’ onto the complex aetiology of human depression,” they wrote.
The researchers said the withdrawn posture is characterized by a similar height between the horse’s neck and back and a stretched neck.
“This posture is distinguished from postures associated with observation of the environment (for which the neck is higher), and resting, when eyes are at least partly closed and the horse’s neck is rounder. Special attention was paid to eye and ear position.
The animals responsiveness to touch was also observed.
Withdrawn horses were found to be less responsive.
Other unusual features of “withdrawn” horses were the absence of ear and head movements, and a fixed gaze.
In all, 24 per cent of the 59 horses from riding school were observed displaying at least once the withdrawn posture (standing with eyes open, stretched neck, similar height between neck and back) up to four times each in 30 minutes.
“Withdrawn” horses also tended to show higher reactions when confronted with a novel object.
“As for human depression, horse ‘depression’ corresponds to a multifaceted syndrome: apathy and loss of interest, lower reactivity but higher anxiety.
“These horses surprisingly displayed higher emotional responses when facing a challenging situation (novel object in a familiar environment), suggesting, as in depressive humans, a higher level of anxiety.”
The researcher said that horses’ depressive states may reflect genetic inputs – as one breed, the French Saddlebred, was over represented in thee sample – and environmental factors certainly had an effect.
The prevalence of females displaying this syndrome was another intriguing convergence with humans, they noted.
“These results open a promising line of investigation of what impaired welfare states could look like in horses.”
They said that while considerable attention had been paid to vices, little interest had been placed on chronic states where horses ‘switch off’, becoming unresponsive and apathetic.
“Moreover, it has been recently suggested that negative experiences linked to training may add to the effects of management style … and lead to behavioural despair in horses.
“Our results suggest that estimations of gaze or body fixity and of body posture might indicate depressive-like state.”
Horses, they concluded, may well ultimately prove to be a particularly useful animal model of human depression.
I would say it’s perfectly plausible. In human beings, sportspeople or otherwise, sometimes people lose their spark after a stressful event or simply let watch their star burn out after a prolonged period of mundanity. This doesn’t happen to all humans but in psychology, there are no all encompassing rules. With horses being sentient mammals, there’s no reason why some shouldn’t susceptible to behavioral changes. It doesn’t necessarily have to be another horse but a hard fought battle, a run in unfavourable circumstances, a backfiring engine at home, an ill tempered stable lad, general mental fatigue or any number of circumstances have the potential to affect a horse’s psyche and in turn, its performance. Obviously, this wouldn’t apply to all horses but it would be preposterous to dismiss the theory as psychobabble without using psychological evidence to back it up.
- You must be logged in to reply to this topic.