Can anyone explain how reserving a name for a horse operates

[stevecaution]

It was said before the St Leger that the name Camelot had been reserved for 10 years by Mrs Magnier, as they were waiting to bestow the name on a horse worthy enough. If you look on At The Races website and search for Camelot, the first name that comes up is Camelot (GB) but is a horse trained by Gerard Butler and who seems to have raced between 2002 and 2005. I just wondered if those who have reserved a name have to wait until the other horse with the name retires and if so, had a horse good enough to carry the name come along when the first horse was still racing, would it have been an opportunity lost?

Thanks to anyone who might know something.

Thanks for the good crack. Time for me to move on. Be lucky.

[Tuffers]

You can use the same name as another horse in training provided it has a different suffix ie (GB), (IRE), (FR) etc.

I think the horse of Gerard Butler’s was actually Camelot I.

In terms of reserving a name, you can reserve a name for a year, renewable once for a further year so I’m not sure how the name came to be reserved for 10 years unless there were a succession of different applicants reserving the name for 2 years each.

[thebrigadier]

Afaik you cannot reserve a name, I think the story was they had been waiting to use the name for 10 years and they decided this was the colt they eventually decided was worthy to bestow the name Camelot on.

You must name a horse when it is registered to race and it cannot use a name currently on the register to race or the name of a horse that has previously won a major flat or jump race. e.g. you can never call another horse Camelot or Arkle.

[Tuffers]

Afaik you cannot reserve a name, I think the story was they had been waiting to use the name for 10 years and they decided this was the colt they eventually decided was worthy to bestow the name Camelot on.

You must name a horse when it is registered to race and it cannot use a name currently on the register to race or the name of a horse that has previously won a major flat or jump race. e.g. you can never call another horse Camelot or Arkle.

You can reserve a name as I’ve indicated above.

[rory]

I think the horse of Gerard Butler’s was actually Camelot I.

Gerard Butler’s horse was also called Camelot – if you search for it on the RP database, it is listed as Camelot I, where the Roman numeral has been appended retrospectively, to stop the records of the horses merging in the database. Timeform do something similar, by appending a period after the name.

On a similar note, it often annoys me to hear people refer to the great Sea-Bird as "Sea-Bird The Second" due to a suffix being added breeding stud-book purposes. He wasn’t named that way!

[elgransenor1]

i’m just concerned someone might nick the name "fat harrys kebab shop" for my potential triple crown winner

[stevecaution]

Thanks to all who have replied. I should have explained that both horses are listed as Camelot (GB) on the At The Races site. I have seen examples before where one might be USA or IRE to differentiate, but was surprised that these two seemed to be identical.

Thanks for the good crack. Time for me to move on. Be lucky.

[stevecaution]

i’m just concerned someone might nick the name "fat harrys kebab shop" for my potential triple crown winner

I remember a poor beast in the 80’s saddled with the name "Donnysnookercentre" I don’t think the horse ever got the breaks in his races

Thanks for the good crack. Time for me to move on. Be lucky.

[rory]

REGISTRATION OF NAMES (RULE (E)2, CHAPTER 2)
3. The Register of names of horses trained in Great Britain

3.1 Where the Authority receives an application in respect of a horse trained in Great Britain which is made in accordance with Rules 4 to 7, the Authority may approve the application and enter the name of the horse in the register of horse names.
3.2 A name which is registered in respect of a horse shall be the horse’s name for the purposes of these Rules.
3.3 Each application to register a name must be accompanied by the appropriate fee specified in Schedule (A)1.
4. Making an application to register a horse name

4.1 An application to register the name of a horse must be made using the Prescribed form.
4.2 The application must
4.2.1 contain such information as the form may require.
4.2.2 be accompanied by the appropriate supporting documents in accordance with Rule 5 or 6, and
4.2.3 be signed by or on behalf of the Owner or Trainer.
4.3 In determining whether to approve an application, the Authority may have regard to such matters as it may consider appropriate.
5. Supporting documents: horse foaled in Great Britian, or Channel Islands

5.1 This Rule applies to an application to register the name of a horse in any case where the horse was foaled in Great Britain, or the Channel Islands.
5.2 The application to register the horse’s name must be accompanied by
5.2.1 its passport (except where the horse happens to be outside Great Britain, or the Channel Islands at the time the application is made), and
5.2.2 such other documents as may be required under Paragraph 5.3 or 5.4.
5.3 In any case where the horse’s passport does not already contain evidence from a Veterinary Surgeon that a Microchip has been implanted, the application must also be accompanied by a statement from a Veterinary Surgeon that the horse has been implanted with an identifying Microchip.
5.4 In any case where the Person who signs the application is unable to confirm the markings of the horse shown in the passport, the application must also be accompanied by an age and markings certificate that complies with Rule 7.1.
5.5 In this Rule references to a horse’s passport are to the approved diagrammatic document of identity for the horse which is issued
5.5.1 by the Stud Book Authority of Great Britain and in accordance with such directions as may be given by the Authority, or
5.5.2 In such other manner as the Authority may specify.
6. Supporting documents: horse foaled elsewhere

6.1 The Rule applies to an application to register the name of a horse in any case where the horse was foaled in a country other than Great Britain, or the Channel Islands.
6.2 The application must be accompanied by
6.2.1 the passport (if any) issued for that horse, and
6.2.2 an age and markings certificate that complies with Rule 7.1
6.3 The application must also be accompanied by a statement from a Veterinary Surgeon that the horse has been implanted with an identifying Microchip in any case where the horse is trained in Great Britain and
6.3.1 the horse’s passport does not already contain evidence from a Veterinary Surgeon that such a Microchip has been implanted, or
6.3.2 the horse has no passport
6.4 In this Rule references to a horse’s passport are to the approved diagrammatic document of identity for the horse which issued on the authority of a Recognised Racing Authority.
7. Age and markings certificates

7.1 An age and markings certificate in respect of a horse is a certificate signed by a Veterinary Surgeon which
7.1.1 specifies the markings of the horse, and
7.1.2 states the age of the horse.
7.2 The Authority may reject any age and markings certificate signed by a Veterinary Surgeon who is
7.2.1 the Owner of the horse,
7.2.2 the Trainer of the horse, or
7.2.3 a Person shown in the Register of Stable Employee Names as being employed by the Trainer.
7.3 Where an age and markings certificate is required in support of an application to register the name of a horse, the Authority must compare the certificate with
7.3.1 if the horse was foaled in Great Britain, or the Channel Islands, the markings first recorded for the horse in the Stud Book maintained by the Stud Book Authority of Great Britain and ;
7.3.2 if the horse was foaled elsewhere, the markings contained in its Export Certificate.
7.4 The Authority must not approve the application if
7.4.1 it considers that there is a discrepancy between the age and markings certificate and the document specified in Paragraph 7.3.1 or 7.3.2, and
7.4.2 the horse’s identity cannot be verified by a blood or a DNA test.
7.5 If the delivery of the Export Certificate for a horse has been delayed, the Authority may provisionally approve an application subject to the subsequent vertification of the horse’s identity.
7.6 The appropriate fee specified in Schedule (A)1 is payable by an applicant for the carrying out of
7.6.1 a comparison required by Paragraph 7.3.2, or
7.6.2 a test for the purposes of Paragraph 7.4.2,
whether or not identity of the horse is verified as a result.
8. Requirements for an application to be approved

8.1 The Authority may approve an application for registration only if
8.1.1 it has received all the documents required by Rules 4 to 7, and
8.1.2 it is satisfied that each of the following conditions is met in respect of the application.
8.2 The first condition is that
8.2.1 the horse’s identity has been properly verified, and
8.2.2 the horse has been implanted with an identifying Microchip.
8.3 The second condition is that the horse has been accepted for inclusion in
8.3.1 the Stud Book maintained by the Stud Book Authority of Great Britain and ,
8.3.2 a Stud Book approved by the International Stud Book Committee (see Paragraph 8.6), or
8.3.3 the Non-Thoroughbred Register.
8.4 The third condition is that the name of the horse
8.4.1 has been determined in accordance with Schedule 1, and
8.4.2 has not been reserved under Rule 11.
8.5 The fourth condition is that the horse, and its sire and dam, are each the produce of a natural service or covering and that, in the course of breeding the horse
8.5.1 a natural gestation took place in the body of the mare in which the foal was conceived, and
8.5.2 the foal was delivered from the mare’s body.
8.6 Schedule 2 lists the countries in respect of which Stud Books have been approved by the International Stud Book Committee.
8.7 In Paragraph 8.5 Natural Service or Covering means the physical mounting of a mare by a stallion and which can include the immediate re-inforcement of the stallion’s service or cover by a portion of the ejaculate produced by that stallion during that service or cover of that same mare.
9. Registration of the name

9.1 Where the Authority approves an application it shall register the name of the horse.
9.2 The registration of the name of a horse does not become effective until the following that on which approval was given.
9.3 A list of registered names (including any names changed under Rule 10) shall be published on the Racing Administration Internet Site.
9.4 In respect of a horse which was foaled outside Great Britain or the Channel Islands
9.4.1 a letter code shall be added to the register to denote the country of foaling, and
9.4.2 this shall form part of the registered name.
9.5 The registration of a name is void if
9.5.1 after registration, it appears to the Authority that any of the conditions specified in Rule 8 were not satisfied at the time of the registration, and
9.5.2 the Authority directs that the registration shall be void.
10. Changing a name

10.1 A name that is registered for a horse may be changed but only in the following circumstances
10.1.1 the Authority decides to correct an incorrect name which has been published in error, or
10.1.2 an application to register a new name is made to, and approved by, the Authority under this Rule.
10.2 The Authority may approve an application to register a new name for the horse if the Authority has received all the documents required by Rules 4 to 7 and is satisfied that
10.2.1 each of the conditions for approval specified in Rule 8 are met in respect of the application, and
10.2.2 Paragraph 10.3 does not prevent it from giving it’s approval.
10.3 No approval may be given if
10.3.1 the horse has run under these Rules, the Rules of a Recognised Racing Authority or in a Point to Point Steeple Chase run in Great Britain or , or
10.3.2 the name of the horse is also registered by a Recognised Racing Authority and that Racing Authority has not given its permission to the name change, or
10.3.3 the horse has been registered either as a broodmare or as a stallion in
10.3.3.1 the Stud Book maintained by the Stud Book Authority of Great Britain and ,
10.3.3.2 the Non-Thoroughbred Register, or
10.3.3.3 any other Stud Book or non-thoroughbred register which is authorised to be published by a Recognised Racing Authority.
11. Reserving a name

11.1 A Person may apply to The Racing Calendar Office for the name of a horse to be reserved.
11.2 If the application is approved, the name may be reserved for a period not exceeding one year.
11.3 The reservation of name may, on further application, be renewed once and for a period not exceeding one year.
11.4 No application under this Rule may be approved unless the Authority is satisfied that the name been determined in accordance with Schedule 1.
11.5 Any name which is reserved for a horse under this Rule shall not have the effect of identifying the horse for the purposes of these Rules until the name as been fully registered in accordance with Rule 9.
12. Fees for an application under Rule 10 or 11

12.1 An application under Rule 10 or 11 must be accompanied by the appropriate fee specified in Schedule (A)1.
12.2 A fee paid on an application to reserve a name may be remitted where
12.2.1 the reserved name is subsequently rejected on an application to register the name,
12.2.2 a reservation for a period of not exceeding 90 days is renewed, or
12.2.3 a name which was reserved for a period of not exceeding 90 days is subsequently registered under this Manual
12.3 No fee may be remitted in any other circumstances.
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MICROCHIPPING REQUIREMENTS
In accordance with Rule (E)3 and Rule (E)4 and Rule (F)70 and Rule (F)71 no entry for a horse will be accepted in Great Britain unless its name has been registered in accordance with the Rules of Racing. In addition any horse, trained in Great Britain, may not be entered unless it has been implanted with a Weatherbys supplied microchip.
All GB or IRE foals born on or after 1st January 1999 should have been microchipped with a Weatherbys chip at the foal registration stage. This will be evident by the presence of a microchip barcode on both the front page and the markings page of the foal passport.
IN THE UNLIKELY EVENT THAT A BARCODE IS NOT PRESENT PLEASE CONTACT THE NAMES AND PASSPORTS SECTION AT WEATHERBYS IMMEDIATELY.
It is unlikely that any FOREIGN BRED foals will have been implanted with the necessary approved microchip. Microchipping of foreign bred foals must take place at the Naming stage.
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SCHEDULE (E)1 – Registration of Horse Names
1.1 The following names are not available for registration for a horse
1.1.1 subject to Paragraph 3 of this Schedule, a name already registered in the register of horse names under Part 2;
1.1.2 subject to Paragraph 4 of this Schedule, a name followed by one or more numbers;
1.1.3 a name on the International and Domestic Lists of Protected Names;
1.1.4 a name of more than 18 characters, including signs or spaces;
1.1.5 a name made up entirely of initials, or include figures, hyphens, full-stops, commas, signs, exclamation marks, inverted commas, forward or backward slash, colon and semi-colon;
1.1.6 a name that starts with a sign other than a letter;
1.1.7 a name containing more than seven syllables;
1.1.8 a name the pronunciation of which the Authority considers to be identical or unacceptably similar, to
1.1.8.1 a name that is on the International or Domestic Lists of Protected Names, or
1.1.8.2 a name that is already registered for a horse foaled in a year that is within 10 years of the year of foaling of the horse to which the application relates;
1.1.9 a name which the Authority considers
1.1.9.1 is suggestive or has vulgar, obscene or insulting meaning,
1.1.9.2 is in poor taste,
1.1.9.3 may be offensive to religious, political or ethnic groups,
1.1.9.4 may otherwise cause offence,
1.1.9.5 may cause confusion in the administration of racing or betting, or
1.1.9.6 is the name of a well known horse.
1.2 For the purposes of Paragraph 1.1 of the Schedule, the use of the definite or indefinate article does not constitute a different name.
2.1 The following names are available for registration for a horse if the conditions specified are met
2.1.1 the name of a public Person may be registered if the Person or his family have given permission;
2.1.2 a name which the Authority considers to be of commercial significance may be registered if appropriate permission has been obtained;
2.1.3 a name which the Authority considers to be that of a prominent company, product or trade name may be registered if
2.1.3.1 the written approval of the company or body associated with the name has been obtained, or
2.1.3.2 the Authority is satisfied that the name has an alternative meaning in common usage.
3.1 A name which has already been entered in the register of horse names shall become available for registration for a different horse at the end of the month of the relevant year during which is became available, as determined in accordance with Paragraphs 3.2 to 3.4.
3.2 Where the name was registered to a brood mare, the relevant year is whichever of the following first occurs
3.2.1 10 years after the mare’s death,
3.2.2 10 years after the last recorded year in which the mare was covered or produced a foal, or
3.2.3 when the mare attains 30 years of age.
3.3 Where the name was registered to a stallion, the revelant year is whichever of the following first occurs
3.3.1 15 years after the stallion’s death,
3.3.2 15 years after the last recorded year in which the stallion covered one or more mares, or
3.3.3 the year when the stallion attains 35 years of age.
3.4 Where the name was registered to any other horse, the relevent year is whichever of the following first occurs
3.4.1 5 years after the horse’s death, or
3.4.2 the year when the horse attains 20 years of age.
4 Where a name is not available for a horse, a numeral may only be added to the name if
4.1 the horse was foaled in Great Britain, or Channel Islands, and
4.2 it is not in the Stud Book maintained by the Stud Book Authority of Great Britain and .
5 If the same name is simultaneously claimed for two horses, the order of priority shall be determined by lot at The Racing Calendar Office.

[thebrigadier]

Afaik you cannot reserve a name, I think the story was they had been waiting to use the name for 10 years and they decided this was the colt they eventually decided was worthy to bestow the name Camelot on.

You must name a horse when it is registered to race and it cannot use a name currently on the register to race or the name of a horse that has previously won a major flat or jump race. e.g. you can never call another horse Camelot or Arkle.

You can reserve a name as I’ve indicated above.

Yes I know you said that, my reply was simply I haven’t seen anything that says you can reserve a name which doesn’t relate to a specific horse. Rory’s post of the rules by my reading doesn’t seem to say you can one way or the other for sure but I may well be wrong.

[rory]

Here’s the relevant section regarding Name Reservation:

11. Reserving a name

11.1 A Person may apply to The Racing Calendar Office for the name of a horse to be reserved.
11.2 If the application is approved, the name may be reserved for a period not exceeding one year.
11.3 The reservation of name may, on further application, be renewed once and for a period not exceeding one year.
11.4 No application under this Rule may be approved unless the Authority is satisfied that the name been determined in accordance with Schedule 1.
11.5 Any name which is reserved for a horse under this Rule shall not have the effect of identifying the horse for the purposes of these Rules until the name as been fully registered in accordance with Rule 9.

and here is the relevant rule regarding registering a name which has previously been in use for an "ordinary" racehorse:

3.4 Where the name was registered to any other horse, the relevent year is whichever of the following first occurs
3.4.1 5 years after the horse’s death, or
3.4.2 the year when the horse attains 20 years of age.

Given the original Camelot (ex Bombazine) died in racecourse action as recently as March 2005, then the name would only have become available again in March 2010, and the notion that the current owners had reserved it for 10 years is clearly incorrect. It’s possible they wanted to use it before, but couldn’t, but the idea that Camelot is the best horse in a decade by dint of his name alone is just another myth.

[thebrigadier]

Thanks for clearing that up Rory.

[Peruvian Chief]

In some cases Sheik Mo and Big John have a Staring Contest, and the victor gets the Name in question. Dandy Nicholls told me this was how Dubai Millennium got his moniker.

[stevecaution]

Here’s the relevant section regarding Name Reservation:

11. Reserving a name

11.1 A Person may apply to The Racing Calendar Office for the name of a horse to be reserved.
11.2 If the application is approved, the name may be reserved for a period not exceeding one year.
11.3 The reservation of name may, on further application, be renewed once and for a period not exceeding one year.
11.4 No application under this Rule may be approved unless the Authority is satisfied that the name been determined in accordance with Schedule 1.
11.5 Any name which is reserved for a horse under this Rule shall not have the effect of identifying the horse for the purposes of these Rules until the name as been fully registered in accordance with Rule 9.

and here is the relevant rule regarding registering a name which has previously been in use for an "ordinary" racehorse:

3.4 Where the name was registered to any other horse, the relevent year is whichever of the following first occurs
3.4.1 5 years after the horse’s death, or
3.4.2 the year when the horse attains 20 years of age.

Given the original Camelot (ex Bombazine) died in racecourse action as recently as March 2005, then the name would only have become available again in March 2010, and the notion that the current owners had reserved it for 10 years is clearly incorrect. It’s possible they wanted to use it before, but couldn’t, but the idea that Camelot is the best horse in a decade by dint of his name alone is just another myth.

Thanks very much. Channel 4 seemed to be making a big deal out of this fact, suggesting that potential decent horses had been passed over as not worthy of carrying the name. By delving a bit deeper we can see it was a red herring. I wasn’t impressed by Channel 4 in general on Saturday, with Camelot’s potentially Swiss cheese form being glossed over and a horse who had won a handicap last time out being touted as having run a great trial for the race. To put the tin lid on it Simon Holt wittered on about how close the finish was in the Portland, uttering nonsense about deceptive angles and too close to call etc. It was clear from where the course is mown across the finishing line that one horse’s neck was over the line and the other was behind it. Simple rules of physics and mathematics made it clear who had won. The result came through and the winning margin was a neck. It didn’t help that Face The Problem was my sole bet of the day but it was cringe worthy viewing.

Thanks for the good crack. Time for me to move on. Be lucky.

[Peruvian Chief]

Here’s the relevant section regarding Name Reservation:

11. Reserving a name

11.1 A Person may apply to The Racing Calendar Office for the name of a horse to be reserved.
11.2 If the application is approved, the name may be reserved for a period not exceeding one year.
11.3 The reservation of name may, on further application, be renewed once and for a period not exceeding one year.
11.4 No application under this Rule may be approved unless the Authority is satisfied that the name been determined in accordance with Schedule 1.
11.5 Any name which is reserved for a horse under this Rule shall not have the effect of identifying the horse for the purposes of these Rules until the name as been fully registered in accordance with Rule 9.

and here is the relevant rule regarding registering a name which has previously been in use for an "ordinary" racehorse:

3.4 Where the name was registered to any other horse, the relevent year is whichever of the following first occurs
3.4.1 5 years after the horse’s death, or
3.4.2 the year when the horse attains 20 years of age.

Given the original Camelot (ex Bombazine) died in racecourse action as recently as March 2005, then the name would only have become available again in March 2010, and the notion that the current owners had reserved it for 10 years is clearly incorrect. It’s possible they wanted to use it before, but couldn’t, but the idea that Camelot is the best horse in a decade by dint of his name alone is just another myth.

Thanks very much. Channel 4 seemed to be making a big deal out of this fact, suggesting that potential decent horses had been passed over as not worthy of carrying the name. By delving a bit deeper we can see it was a red herring. I wasn’t impressed by Channel 4 in general on Saturday, with Camelot’s potentially Swiss cheese form being glossed over and a horse who had won a handicap last time out being touted as having run a great trial for the race. To put the tin lid on it Simon Holt wittered on about how close the finish was in the Portland, uttering nonsense about deceptive angles and too close to call etc. It was clear from where the course is mown across the finishing line that one horse’s neck was over the line and the other was behind it. Simple rules of physics and mathematics made it clear who had won. The result came through and the winning margin was a neck. It didn’t help that Face The Problem was my sole bet of the day but it was cringe worthy viewing.

Could you really expect C4 to present their show on Saturday with a theme that Camelot was an average horse from a poor crop? They were bound, and perhaps duty bound, to hype the race, and the horse, up.

Cattermole – "Here we are at Doncaster, where Camelot is trying to become the first horse in 4 decades to win the triple crown, and emulate the legendary Nijinsky. But I have to say, Camelot’s form has more holes than the TItanic, and he looks a bit of a poor Derby winner truth be told. Anyway – stay tuned!".

[stevecaution]

Could you really expect C4 to present their show on Saturday with a theme that Camelot was an average horse from a poor crop? They were bound, and perhaps duty bound, to hype the race, and the horse, up.

Cattermole – "Here we are at Doncaster, where Camelot is trying to become the first horse in 4 decades to win the triple crown, and emulate the legendary Nijinsky. But I have to say, Camelot’s form has more holes than the TItanic, and he looks a bit of a poor Derby winner truth be told. Anyway – stay tuned!".

Surely they have a duty to the viewer/punter as well? I am not asking them to cut Camelot open and do an autopsy on him, some mention of the form not having worked out could have been made before they started oiling the guests up and fawning their way through the interviews. The Truth? We CAN handle the Truth.

Thanks for the good crack. Time for me to move on. Be lucky.

[andrew_03]

And thats without the whole shoddy Ladbrokes ‘money for nothing’ promotion..

[Author]

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