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Just a line on this – a personal one and not intended as ‘official ATR comment’ .
I was watching the pictures from Brighton live when this incident happened. I was watching because this was a well fancied horse clearly getting het up and there was a good chance we would replay the shots of the horse upon returning from the ad break we were on.
I saw the horse wheel round repeatedly whilst the jockey and stalls handler were trying to re-tighten the girth. The horse was agitated but not out of control. I saw no rearing, kicking, butting or biting at all.
This is not to say such things did not happen, only that I did not witness them happen prior to the blow. It is clear from subsequent reports that a groom was injured by this horse.
I watched as the stalls handler and jockey continued with their efforts to tighten the girth, I saw the stalls handler jerking the lead rein to try and get the horse to stand up and stand still and then I saw him smack the horse sharply in the head.
I have to say my heart sank a bit when I saw this. Not because I’m a wooly pc organic tofu eating tree hugging bleeding heart but because what I think I saw was a stalls handler lose his temper with a horse and do something which with time to reflect he would almost certainly regret. Like others on this forum I’ve ridden in the past and kept horses and been in close proximity to horses and like others with that kind of background I’ve seen similar discipline used; sometimes calmly and sometimes by someone who has frankly lost patience and sometimes because it was absolutely essential in that moment.
Do I think horses are capable of the same feelings as us? No. Do I think that the horse will be scarred for life by this experience? No. I do think it was a rash and foolish act though because of the potential consequence for the sport. It looked to me like a momentary (and perhaps understandable) loss of temper but it was obviously going to be recorded and obviously going to cause the kind of reaction that followed. I passed no judgement on the handlers actions at the time and I still don’t feel inclined or entitled to do so – that’s a matter for him and his employers. But I do think it was a sad and regrettable incident with the potential to damage the sports reputation and I wish it hadn’t occurred.Your initial usage of the term racing insider implied to me some sort of cloak and dagger secret club complete with its secret handshakes ~ a "them and us" scenario, Firefox.
It is indeed true that I have been heavily involved with, and employed within, different aspects of the industry for many years now – you make it sound as though you are holding that against me! I speak as I find and in twenty odd years dealing with horses – many which have ben unruly – I tend to think I’m sort of qualified to speak on the subject!
As for the assertion that calling horses stupid shows total disregard for the animal – what nonsense. In actual fact it shows a fairly good grasp of the understanding of the animal – I’m not saying "ner, ner, you’re a retard" to a horse and thus upsetting it, don’t let’s anthropomorphise them – I’m simply stating a fact. Horses act through instinct, not through intelligently weighing up the pros and cons of an action before carrying it out.
Good to see the Badgers got a reprieve today
Anything that upsets tax thieving farmers is ok by me anyway, but the propsed cull was a disgrace
Just thought id drop that in
By all means, Clive! Glad to learn the mushroom hunt can continue unimpeded, then…
gc
Adoptive father of two. The patron saint of lower-grade fare. A gently critical friend of point-to-pointing. Kindness is a political act.
A very balanced post Sean, and one with which I concur entirely.
Given the choice, it would be better if it hadn’t happened. However, like most of those on the forum who have been around horses for a while, I regognise that discipline is essential, and have hit horses myself on numerous occasions. We all know that there is nothing wrong with that, but for a stalls handler to do it is detrimental to the image created of the sport to those not involved in it.
Amazing it’s taken 5 pages of discussion to get here!
Back to the main thrust of the topic – whip rules. As I understand it, the UK whip rules do not permit use of the whip on a horse’s face/head. I am presuming there is a reason for this. I therefore find it irreconcilable that a person hitting a horse’s face with their hand is within the rules of racing.
The thread is NOT about whip rules.No-one has said it is within the rules to hit a horse on the face; the argument is rather more complex.
If I am running in a cross country race and my coach runs up to me and pats me on the back and says "come one, you can go faster" I will feel encouraged. If he hits me across the face it will send an altogether different message. The difference is one of psychology not physical degree as both strikes were of equal measure.
Suppose you’d just tried to take your coach’s head off?!
Caprio has been a model of consistency since October last year, running 14 times and changing stables twice. The events at Brighton may have as much to do with mental fatigue as anything else, and who is to say he wasn’t stung my a wasp or something.
I am. Now. He wasn’t stung by a wasp.
As I understand it the horse has never behaved like this before so at the very least some sort of consideration should have been given to the horse in his agitated state rather than punishing him.
Yes he has ~ as Tom Dascombe said "Caprio smashed poor Anna in the face, and had played up so much he had to be resaddled at the start. He proved very difficult to handle down there. On his three runs for me his behaviour has been awful."
It is regrettable any humans were injured, but this in itself is not a justification for the action of the stalls handler, as some seem to be suggesting.
The thrust of the argument is not so much that Mark Wilson was justified, but that he shouldn’t automatically be banned for life as you suggested and that his actions may have had mitigating circumstances.
That is my last word on the subject. And if I am making myself look stupid then so be it. Rather that, and stand by my beliefs, than follow the pack.
Fair play for standing by your beliefs and for having the grace not to post again in response to this; there’s nothing more annoying that people claiming to have had their last word on a subject just so they can claim to have had THE last word. I’m sure you’re not like that.
Having just watched the incident for the first time on The Morning Line, and John Francome’s lamentable defence of the stall handler and pathetic outburst at McCririck, no wonder Racing people get accused of closing ranks; especially when defending the indefensible.
This "slap" I have been reading and hearing about was actually a punch. The stall handler lost his cool – simple as that. It was an unprofessional thing to do, and whether you agree or not, it sends out the wrong message to the viewing public ; i.e. that it is ok to punch animals in the head.
Francome, who let’s face it, is not the brightest jewel in the crown, opined that the people who were complaining about this particular incident were the same people who allow their children to mug and stab other people.
Ehhhh? What kind of stupid, ill – informed and ill – considered comment is that to make anywhere, let alone on national tv.
Little Miss Jolly Hockey Sticks backed up Francome on the matter (no surprise there then) but Big Mac, to his credit, stood his ground – while the others remained silent. I have never once heard John Francome breaking ranks and offering any comment which might be seen to criticise anything which might be deemed controversial within racing, or any one individual within the racing fraternity. Great jockey though he was, he has gone down in my estimation.
Befeore I get the self – righteous horsey people telling me how wrong I am, let me get in there first. I do not care one jot. I know what I saw and it did look bad.The stall handler was wrong to punch the horse, and should be reprimanded for his actions.
Gambling Only Pays When You're Winning
Watched the incident this morning on morning line, wonder if mac would volunteer to load caprio next time out, and caprio has behaved badly on his last 3 outings, this was not a one off .
Francome, who let’s face it, is not the brightest jewel in the crown, opined that the people who were complaining about this particular incident were the same people who allow their children to mug and stab other people.
Ehhhh? What kind of stupid, ill – informed and ill – considered comment is that to make anywhere, let alone on national tv.
I would say he is spot on actually.
It is those who propose that you reason with children and don’t, where necessary, physically discipline them that are responsible for the almost complete lack of discipline in society today.
When I was bought up I was taught there were boundaries – if I crossed them I was first of all warned. If I continued to cross them I was punished, not beaten or flogged but a slap on the arm or leg was sufficient. I did not like being punished and I therefore accepted the boundaries.
As regards his right to express those concerns.
You happily exercise the right to express what some could describe as “ill – informed and ill – considered comment” on a public internet forum.
Ergo what gives you the right to deny him the right to express his opinions just because they disagree with yours.
Having just watched the incident for the first time on The Morning Line, and John Francome’s lamentable defence of the stall handler and pathetic outburst at McCririck, no wonder Racing people get accused of closing ranks; especially when defending the indefensible.
This "slap" I have been reading and hearing about was actually a punch. The stall handler lost his cool – simple as that. It was an unprofessional thing to do, and whether you agree or not, it sends out the wrong message to the viewing public ; i.e. that it is ok to punch animals in the head.
Francome, who let’s face it, is not the brightest jewel in the crown, opined that the people who were complaining about this particular incident were the same people who allow their children to mug and stab other people.
Ehhhh? What kind of stupid, ill – informed and ill – considered comment is that to make anywhere, let alone on national tv.
Little Miss Jolly Hockey Sticks backed up Francome on the matter (no surprise there then) but Big Mac, to his credit, stood his ground – while the others remained silent. I have never once heard John Francome breaking ranks and offering any comment which might be seen to criticise anything which might be deemed controversial within racing, or any one individual within the racing fraternity. Great jockey though he was, he has gone down in my estimation.
Befeore I get the self – righteous horsey people telling me how wrong I am, let me get in there first. I do not care one jot. I know what I saw and it did look bad.The stall handler was wrong to punch the horse, and should be reprimanded for his actions.
I also watched this on the Morning Line…and you wont be surprised to read that i’d back Francome over Big Mac on any subject… but especially in the matter of horsemanship. Just as on this site, you had people who work with horses all their lives giving an informed opinion on the subject, and then you have 1 buffon "speaking for the punters" whose only experience of horses is losing money on them. The man should not be allowed to spout such rubbish….he creates more trouble and damage than any smack/punch/kick by a stall handler will ever do..
As regards his right to express those concerns.
You happily exercise the right to express what some could describe as “ill – informed and ill – considered comment” on a public internet forum.
Ergo what gives you the right to deny him the right to express his opinions just because they disagree with yours.
I suppose it’s for the same reason that you have the right to use pretentious words like ergo on a saturday morning:
So, Francome is perfectly entitled to pontificate and spurt forth his half baked ramblings about a section of society who take a counter view fron his – " the same people who allow their children to mug and stab other people." The clown !
What is he on ?
My sons and daughters a have never mugged or stabbed anyone.
I’m quite sure the racehorse in question is quite unware about his mischievous behaviour; as unlike us human beings, the animal cannot assess or evaluate the so called error of his ways. Maybe his trainer and staff should work harder to correct any behaviourial problems the horse has – or give up racing the horse altogether.
The bottom line is that a defenceless animal was punched on the head by a stall handler ( in a position of trust) who lost his temper. No amount of remonstrating from you or anyone else can alter the fact that he was wrong to do so. Had this incident occured on the high street ( for example)or outwith the confines of a racecourse, and been witnessed, then there would be reasonable grounds to suggest that the same man could have found himself being visited by the RSPCA.
Gambling Only Pays When You're Winning
"defenceless animal" If you honestly think this is the case for a horse then you really need your head checked. A horse can kill a human very quickly if it wanted to, i suggest you ask for stint as a handler and see if you change your opinion.
both Francome and Alice probably have more actual contact with horses in one day than McCriricick has had with them in the whole of his life; has anyone ever seen him riding or handling a horse?.I think John Francome treated the horses he rode with more respect than any jockey before or after him,
"defenceless animal" If you honestly think this is the case for a horse then you really need your head checked. A horse can kill a human very quickly if it wanted to, i suggest you ask for stint as a handler and see if you change your opinion.
Even after said examination and stint, I still could not bring myself to punch a horse on the head – no matter how unruly the animal was.
I suggest the stall handler requires some anger management therapy.Gambling Only Pays When You're Winning
bin spite of apparently incontrovertible evidence to the contrary.
Apparently incontrovertible is an oxymoron.
However, it is only intcontrovertible to people who do not know what they are talking about.
What is this incontrovertible evidence – you have not produced any yet.
firefox and himself – it is not a day to day requirement to smack a horse in the face. But when you have a horse who is clearly looking like he is going to flip, you must get him back under control ASAP. Otherwise your life and the life of other humans would be at risk. Im not bothered about the guys job, i’m bothered that people who are used to promote the sport on a day to day basis (ie Mac) start jumping up and down and talking about how it is cruel. That in turn gets other non-horse people thinking "Oh it must be cruel if Big Mac says so". Its not cruel, its controling an animal. These animals are not fluffy kittins. All that smack did was get the horses attention and reminded him who the boss is.
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