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I could take that seriously if this Looking at Lucky was some sort of wonderhorse. Rachel Alaexander..now that was a horse and I always thought Zenyatta would have beaten her, so thinking Looking at Lucky could beat her is something I wouldn’t waste my time with..Zenyatta will be too busy looking good to worry about Looking Lucky.
We’ll just have to wait and see, Fist, won’t we ?
I certainly don’t claim that Lookin At Lucky is any kind of wonder horse, but he is a good horse, and one which Bob Baffert thinks highly of; and although the colt’s CV was slightly blighted by his disappointing run in the Kentucky Derby on the same track where the Classic will be contested, I’m convinced that mentally and physically, he has matured a helluva since then – and he certainly won’t go down without a fight; of that I’m sure.
Zenyatta has dispensed of one good field to date, but I’m still not convinced she is the extraordinary mare you think her to be. Oh, she’s good, I’ll give you that; but a Zarkava, Allez France, Ruffian or Pretty Polly she aint.
A very good ( and shrewd as they come ) friend of mine, who is known to wade through the deep and murky waters of Betfair from time to time, has informed me he will be laying Zenyatta all night long on. He may be setting himself up for a huge fall, but rarely gets the big calls wrong. He recently urged me to bet the nil nil draw, Man U v Rangers. I didn’t , he did.
He got richer still. I suppose he ( possibly like your good self ? ) follows the old S.A.S. motto, or something quite similar, of…
he who dares ( sometimes
) wins ! 
ps. Watch out, there could still be fireworks on November 6th.
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He must be worth a few quid this friend of yours. Tell him I’ll toss him for it
Seriously though I can think of a million better things to do with my money than lay a horse that’s won 19 from 19.
I have never been to Churchill Downs but I remember Mick Kinane saying it’s comparitively a very long straight there and you can take your time.
That fact is a huge advantage to Zenyatta. She didn’t have that luxury last year and still one impresssively.
This year will be a much easier race IMO and she’ll win with ease 20/20 and the like those you mention will retire.
As far as comparing her to others that’s hard one but she’s got to be up there. Such a pity she never raced in Europe and we could see her open up in a race like The Arc with a 3f run in. Like the Concorde she might have broken the sound barrier
Talking of comaprisons I think Secretariat is the greatest horse of all time in cluding Sea Bird II I’ve never seen anything to compare to him beating a field of good horses by over 1000 yds and knocking 10 bells out of time showing in no way was he flattered.
Can’t wait to see the movie only hope it does the horse justice. Next racing movie they will make will be called " Zenyatta the Dancing Queen" after she kicks ass for the final time in November.
Yes Fist, Zenyatta has won 19 from 19 – but steady on here; you and me could both have been placed in most of those (non) events.
Secretariat, whom some cynics rather disparagingly refer to as the steroid freak, was a definitely racing machine ( on dirt ) who more often than not ran his rivals into the ground. He was a grinder, rather than one who possessed explosive and instant accelaration. He won the Man ‘O War Stakes on turf, but I just cannot have him defeating the mighty Sea Bird on that surface. No siree, I just can’t !
Patrick Glennon would have sat on Big Red’s withers pulling double, irrespective of pace, fractions etc, before unleashing that majestic and imperious turn of foot. I can visualise it now – whooosh … and the Bird has flown ! Good night Secretariat !
Yes, Churchill Downs is a relatively long straight, which may help Zenyatta, or then again, may hinder her – and might just aid the street fighters like three year old, Lookin’ At Lucky, and the older horses, such as and Blame and Quality Road.
It’s one race to look forward to and savour. I can’t wait.
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I’ve also never been to Churchill Downs but will be there in less than 4 weeks – UPS delivered the tickets today.!
As for the race, this will definitely be her hardest ever race and although I would just love to see her win – for the post race atmosphere more than anything else – I am slightly pessimistic.
It’s just finding the one that could beat her; I cannot have Looking at(un)Lucky. Won well in the slop last time but I would not be surprised if he didn’t make it to post. Just seems that sort of horse.
Quality Road certainly has quirks and is not for me. Blame blotted his copybook last time out but will definitely be a danger in a fast run race and I’ve backed him each way.
Cannot see any of the European horses being successful on the Dirt.
There you go – she wins by default..!!
Lookin At Lucky won last start despite the slop, not because of it… I take American trainer/jockey comments more lightly but they weren’t sure about it pre-race and didn’t think it aided his cause post. I really don’t see how Lookin At Lucky isn’t a good chance of making it to post.
I can’t believe he had that string of bad luck earlier this season because he has a standard racing style and decent speed, but that’s what big fields and a run of bad luck can do.
If you watch the longer video of the Kentucky Derby he got absolutely smashed at the start. The Preakness was unimpressive for sure, but he must have improved on the run and the step up in distance in the Haskell. Last race was good, shows he handles rain-affected going.He might not be a wonder horse but he’s a real star. The long homestraight is a worry but he doesn’t take long to get going and has a very powerful kick. He’s definitely a bigger threat to Zenyatta than anything that showed up last year (since Rip was over the top) in my opinion. Cracking race.
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You should watch him in the Preakness stakes. Not only did he take too long to get past his oponnents he couldn’t put any distance between himself and the others in the straight.
I can’t see him stealing a march on Zenyatta and if it’s down to who has the best kick there’s no contest if Oakland is any guide. Zenyatta was only jogging in the AB and Mike Smith eased her down yet she covered the last part of the race within a fraction of a sceond of Lookin at Luckys time in the RIP and he was absolutely flat out.
He may have improved as a horse since but it’s unlikely his ability to quicken has Plus Zenyatta has also have the right to have improved.
I have tried but I can’t find anything in his armoury to suggest he can beat Zenyatta bara fluke no matter how you cut it.
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Secretariat, whom some cynics rather disparagingly refer to as the steroid freak, was a definitely racing machine ( on dirt ) who more often than not ran his rivals into the ground. He was a grinder, rather than one who possessed explosive and instant accelaration. He won the Man ‘O War Stakes on turf, but I just cannot have him defeating the mighty Sea Bird on that surface. No siree, I just can’t !
Patrick Glennon would have sat on Big Red’s withers pulling double, irrespective of pace, fractions etc, before unleashing that majestic and imperious turn of foot. I can visualise it now – whooosh … and the Bird has flown ! Good night Secretariat !
quote]Don’t get me wrong it’s not easy to say there might be one better than Sea Bird II. But I can’t agree that Secretariat was a "grinder". I think you are mistaking that for a horse who’s jockey was given the instruction to let him run the race his way, that great day.
What a magical day that was when after only a short distance he was going so fast you’d have thought he was in the final stages of the Epsom Derby then he went faster and faster until no other horse in history could have sat on his quarters as you suggest.
He may not have beaten Sea Bird II by 1000yds but by gum he’d have taken the sting out of his tail and left him with nothing to fight back with.
I have no idea if they game him steroids perhaps they did. What I do know is iis his heart weighed twice that of a normal horse as did Phar Laap’s and it is reckoned that gave him a massive advantage over the others.
The one thing the two had in common is the races they were most famous for were full of high class animals. The big difference was Sea Bird II beat his rivals by 6 lenthths wheras Secrtariat beat his rivals by a football pitch.
Hope Zeyatta doesn’t mind you and me debating these two great horses in her thread…….probably she feels right at home……damn site more than lookin at friggin lucky that’s for sure
You obviously haven’t played much football, Fist.
Secretariat, like all American trained horses raced on flat, left-handed, tight tracks, unlike the Europeans, who have to encounter a series of straight, left-handed, right-handed, up hill/down hill, galloping, tight, middling type courses, when challenged to prove their worth.
Now, that’s a no fault of Secretariat. He could only do what he was asked to do – and he did it exceptionally well – although he did lose five races, lest we forget; and two of those defeats were at the hands of horses, Onion and Prove Out ( who beat Big Red by 4 and a half lengths) trained by Allen Jerkins. Possibly the one shrewdie among the rival trainers who figured out how to beat the relentless galloping style of Lauren’s star colt?
Secretariat’s win in the Belmont was phenomenal. He beat four other rivals that day. Sham was a broken horse by then and the others just couldn’t compete. It was the only time he dispatched the field by, as you put it, " the length of a football pitch."
When Sea Bird won, it was invariably "hard held" or "effortless" – as you well know.
It is pointless trying to draw comparisons in any case, as both ran in different continents and under different conditions.
Both Secretariat and Sea Bird had some things in common. Apart from being champion racehorse, both were chestnut, and both were 16.2 hands.
Timeform did find one difference though – i.e. one pound !
Sea Bird II 145
Secretariat 144.Those Halifax boys sure know their onions.
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That thing about steroids.Were they used in the seventies?
Never crossed my mind before.Now looking back I wonder. Never saw a horse go quicker the farther he went.Hate to think of steroids but now I do.One more dream destroyed.Sadly.Then they said that Baffert’s horses were on steroids.Was Seattle Slew on steroids also?He certainly became a great sire. Better story than Secretariate, also the owners were smarter than that woman who owned Secretariate.But I digress.That thing about steroids.Were they used in the seventies?
Never crossed my mind before.Now looking back I wonder. Never saw a horse go quicker the farther he went.Hate to think of steroids but now I do.One more dream destroyed.Sadly.Then they said that Baffert’s horses were on steroids.Was Seattle Slew on steroids also?He certainly became a great sire. Better story than Secretariate, also the owners were smarter than that woman who owned Secretariate.But I digress.Sec wasn’t on steroids. His feats weren’t that far out of the realm of possibility for a "natural" Thoroughbred-the Belmont track was exceptionally fast for that meet, which probably shaved at least half a second off his time. He broke or equalled two American records and three track records. He wasn’t invincible, losing 5 times, so if he was on steroids they weren’t working very well.
Seattle Slew wasn’t on steroids. He was actually noted for being relatively "slow", never breaking the two-minute mark at 10f and only breaking two track records, so he was underrated even after he won the Triple Crown. His owners were very, very dumb and corrupt, they insisted on running him in a stakes 3 weeks after the Belmont despite his trainer’s protests, then switched trainers after Billy Turner refused to run the horse into the ground. Then Slew got sick and nearly died, so he didn’t run for the rest of 1977. If Slew had smart owners he probably would have remained unbeaten.
Another 16.2hh chestnut, Man O’ War, was used to running over the right-handed Belmont course (switched to left-hand in 1921), and carried more weight than Secretariat, Slew, or Sea-Bird. His damsire Rock Sand won the English Triple Crown. The whole bottom side of his pedigree is English turf breeding.
Back to the issue at hand: the foreign horses coming to the BC. The Mile is shaping up to be the most competitive race on the card, with Gio Ponti, Proviso, Goldikova, and Paco Boy, anomg others. Do any of the others have a chance at catching Goldi?
Are there any Euros coming over for the Marathon? It’s on dirt this year, but it still seems like easy pickings when the best we’ve got is Eldaafer.
Proviso and Gio Ponti wouldn’t get Goldokova out of second gear this side of the pond, but they seem to perform better round the tight turning American tracks.
If Goldikova is in fine fettle then it’s difficult to look beyond her.
Going back to Secretariat: trainer Allen Jerkens, the Hall of Fame trainer, whose horses twice defeated Secretariat, along with taking the scalps of other greats, was asked how great he thought Secretariat was.
His reply: " Oh, he was a great horse alright, no doubt -but in my opinion, no greater than say… Citation or Spectacular Bid. He was beaten four times, don’t forget "
Actually, it was five, but hey.
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Zenyatta will win. It’s the most obvious outcome of a race you can imagine and for her not be favourite is truly magnificent for any punter on the planet. It’s a great time to have a bet. So many people try and be clever and look past the obvious, please don’t do this, I don’t want the bookies to benefit from your stupidness.
Proviso and Gio Ponti wouldn’t get Goldokova out of second gear this side of the pond, but they seem to perform better round the tight turning American tracks.
If Goldikova is in fine fettle then it’s difficult to look beyond her.
Going back to Secretariat: trainer Allen Jerkens, the Hall of Fame trainer, whose horses twice defeated Secretariat, along with taking the scalps of other greats, was asked how great he thought Secretariat was.
His reply: " Oh, he was a great horse alright, no doubt -but in my opinion, no greater than say… Citation or Spectacular Bid. He was beaten four times, don’t forget "
Actually, it was five, but hey.
Four times outright, the fifth was a disqualification.
Four times outright, the fifth was a disqualification.
You are such a pedant, Miss Woodford.
Yes, he was disqualified, and rightly so ; therefore it goes down as a loss !
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Does it matter or affect how good a horse ends up being if he’s beaten 10 times? It’s totally unimportant and there were reasons some of which were "very questionable" why he was beat.
Do you judge Kauto Star on his 8 defeats or do you judge him on winning 2 Gold Cups,4 King George’s a tally he yet could to add to?
The fact remains that Secretariat not only won the Triple Crown but broke recor after record doing it.
No horse in history has come near to travelling at the average speed he put up in the Bellmont or won it by over 30 lengths.
I maintain not even the great Sea Bird II would have been able to beat him that day.
At the speed Secetariat was going like the others who were held up Sea Bird’s jockey would have been expecting him to come back to him like the others were, not go faster and pull further away.
Even trying to lay up with him would have proved fatal as Secretariat ran the entire race at racing pace never letting up for a scond. No horse that ever lived could travel on the bridle at that speed for 12 furlongs and no hold up horse like Sea Bird would have had the forsight to realise what was about to happen.
Good jockeys have that built in sense when a pace is too fast and know it can’t be maintained so they sit of it and wait….what Secretariat did was the impossible and that’s why the record still sands and probably will never be broken.
His phenominal achievments I presume took their toll and he suffered a couple of defeats but just for the hell of it he broke the world record for 11f in between times and topped that by switching to turf and breaking the track record in a time that still stands today.
I’ve read about or watched every would be champion in the last 100 years and for me he comes out head and shoulders above the lot of them.
Wish someone would put a torrent up for the movie I doubt if it will be released here until it’s out on DVD
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Proviso and Gio Ponti wouldn’t get Goldokova out of second gear this side of the pond, but they seem to perform better round the tight turning American tracks.
If Goldikova is in fine fettle then it’s difficult to look beyond her.
Going back to Secretariat: trainer Allen Jerkens, the Hall of Fame trainer, whose horses twice defeated Secretariat, along with taking the scalps of other greats, was asked how great he thought Secretariat was.
His reply: " Oh, he was a great horse alright, no doubt -but in my opinion, no greater than say… Citation or Spectacular Bid. He was beaten four times, don’t forget "
Actually, it was five, but hey.
Forgetting what humpty dumpty had to say about Big Red I wouldn’t touch Goldikova with a barge pole this time round.
There are a few times where EW betting becomes obviously better than backing the likley winner and this is one of them IMO
Paco Boy 8/1 ew was the bet for this race.
He has a better chance in my veiw of being placed than Goldokiva has of winning.
The way Richard Hannon has trained him also makes me think this time round we’ll see Paco boy in the best form of his life. After Ascot this was always going to be his main target something his poor run in France would indicate. There’s no flies on the Troggman,he doesn’t send Canford Cliffs as he is a lot more confident about Paco Boy than he’s letting on and I think we’re in for an upset.
I certainly wouldn’t be offering the 8/1 I got or even 7/1 I’d make him a 7/2 shot, with an excellent chance of winning, all day long.
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