- This topic has 102 replies, 30 voices, and was last updated 11 years, 11 months ago by
.
-
Posts
-
Gingertipster…I suggest you have a good look at both Hennessy Gold Cup races in question !
Denman was far more impressive in 2007 than he was in 2009, and gave Sam Thomas an armchair ride destroying the field from way out,whereas Ruby Walsh had to get serious with him and bustle him up for ages when he won as an inferior horse to the one we had all witnessed before.
Ask his trainer and owners…they will put you right!
He was never the same horse as he had been up to and including the 2008 Gold Cup when UNDEFEATED over fences.
Could it be that "trainer and owners" just might be touch biased?
Of course Denman was "far more impressive in 2007", Carrying almost a stone less than in 2009!
Even allowing for the 2007 ease of victory, the form of the 2009 version is at least as good. It certainly proves your prognosis of being "a shadow of his former self" after the heart problem – to be totally wrong.
Form is one horse judged on how it beat or was beaten by the next and the next and the next. Not how many races were won or if "undefeated". Any maiden winner on debut is "undefeated", doesn’t mean it’s a better horse than a Derby second.
Do you understand handicapping AS?
Value Is EverythingGingertipster..before "trying" to condescend me,may I suggest you check your FACTS !
Denman carried the SAME top weight of 11st 12lbs in both Hennessy Gold Cup wins,and, everyone is quite aware that Kauto Star would have been unable to give weight away and win, which is why they kept him away from handicaps throughout his career,despite being entered in the Betfred Gold Cup Chase most years.
I understand far more than you give me credit for !
You follow ?
Gingertipster..before "trying" to condescend me,may I suggest you check your FACTS !
Denman carried the SAME top weight of 11st 12lbs in both Hennessy Gold Cup wins
,
I understand far more than you give me credit for !
You follow ?
AS,
Sorry to be so "condescending", but with that post you’ve just proven you don’t understand handicapping.Could I ask someone else to explain why, because I don’t trust my fingers not to be even more condescending in reply.
Value Is EverythingIf you say so,Gingertipster !
What…no apology for getting your facts wrong about the weights carried by Denman in both his Hennessy Gold Cup wins ?
Two things first.
Firstly, you’ll find that he was RATED as 13 pounds higher in 2009 than 2007.
Secondly, 2010 called. It wants its racing argument back.
But let’s face facts. You aren’t really a Denman fan, are you? No, you’re an Arkle enthusiast. You’re an Arkle enthusiast who refuses to countenance the possibility that there may have been a better horse than his boyhood hero. You’re an Arkle enthusiast who needs any excuse possible to put down the horse that was, quite possibly*, a better horse than his boyhood hero. You’re an Arkle enthusiast who can’t accept that Timeform had no idea what they were doing when they started National Hunt ratings (incidentally, if anyone genuinely believes Mill House was better than Desert Orchid or Dunkirk** was better than Denman and Best Mate and Long Run and all but five other chasers, they can have a nice cold pint of **** Off) and really ought to admit to the fact. You’re an Arkle enthusiast who can’t see that in the 60s there were undoubtedly the same sorts of old farts who said the same thing about Golden Miller (‘aah’, they went, ‘he never ran in the Grand National and he only won the Gold Cup three times, as opposed to the Miller’s Five Times – NOW CAN YOU DIG THAT, SUCKA?’). You’re an Arkle enthusiast, and if anyone dares stand up to Himself, you have a little cry.
Now, please, go away. For all our sakes.
FLD
*By ‘quite possibly’ I mean ‘definitely’, but I really don’t want to see the Waaaagument AS puts forward. There IS an argument for Arkle being better than Kauto, but AS would probably not make it. Also, said argument is WRONG.
**Who? No, seriously, who? Is Wikipedia having a wind-up or summat?
Twitter=@PGHenn
So don't run, just like the others always do
Of course Denman was "far more impressive in 2007", Carrying almost a stone less than in 2009!
Had hoped you’d understand the metaphor AS. As I did point out in an earlier post the different "marks". ie in 07 Denman raced off a mark of 161, in 2009 he raced off a mark of 174.
Do you understand "marks" AS?
Value Is EverythingYawn !
I have no interest in getting into a slanging match of abuse with you,fivelongdays,and you can bury your head in the sand and dream about Kauto Star being the greatest if you wish…the record books show otherwise,and his actual career results,in their entirity,are there to be seen by all and sundry…whilst Denman prevailed three times out of four in their own private battles, and, even Long Run prevailed three times out of five also !
So do you think that Silviniaco Conti can win the 2013 Gold Cup ?
It doesn’t matter how many times you roll out the same Denman 3 Kauto 1 score AS. The match score doesn’t matter, the better horse (Kauto) won the league.
Until you understand marks/form, your idea of the best horse will always be flawed.
Value Is EverythingYawn !
I have no interest in getting into a slanging match of abuse with you,fivelongdays,and you can bury your head in the sand and dream about Kauto Star being the greatest if you wish…the record books show otherwise,and his actual career results,in their entirity,are there to be seen by all and sundry…whilst Denman prevailed three times out of four in their own private battles, and, even Long Run prevailed three times out of five also !
So do you think that Silviniaco Conti can win the 2013 Gold Cup ?
It’s possible, although I prefer others at the mo.
Here’s one – other than the over-rated Mill House, who did Arkle beat, and over what distances?
Twitter=@PGHenn
So don't run, just like the others always do
I don’t think Denman was a better chaser when he won his second Hennessey. I think he would have won his first if he was rated 20 lb high that day, such was his dominance.
Arklesupreme you are extremely tedious. You hold only two opinions: Arkle is the best ever, and Denman was definitely better than Kauto. You are so sure of your opinon that there is no reason to enter a discussion with anyone because you will never be convinced you are anything other than right.
We are all now aware of your opinions, so why do you feel the need to repeat the same mantra continually?
Everyone who is in this discussion with Arklesupreme should be warned he peddles the same story wherever he goes and tries to wind people up. The best way to prevent him from succeeding is to ignore him. Otherwise he will divert every single thread on this forum into a Denman v Kauto slanging match.
You ruined BBC 606 and you are going about ruining this great forum.
Admiralofthefleet,please do not attempt to victimise me here….I merely responded to elgransenors sweeping statement that "Kauto Star was the best chaser seen in the past 40 years" and it escalated from there !
There is no harm done with healthy discussion about the matter and if you want to create a thread about that…be my guest..though I feel everything has been said about it all now,and we are just entering the world of "tautology".
Change the record, Arklesupreme.
This Kauto V Denman subject is surely worthy of a separate thread. (although Kauto was clearly the better all-round horse as Bosranic cogently outlined)
You’re coming across as a third-rate late night DJ. Fancy a training course on devil’s advocacy?
As for Long Run, the horse has plateaued. We know he isn’t the best jumper around and I personally would look to oppose him every time, unless a short price in a weaker race (one of those warm-ups for the big ‘un).
Zip
Kauto was better, Denman caught my imagination more and yes Zip this belongs on a separate thread. Case closed.
Denman never dined at the same tables as Kauto. That is shown from his career prize money of £685,000 whereas Kauto managed to scoff just short of £1.9 million. The ratings show a high of 182 for Denman and 193 for Kauto. When you look at their overall careers I don’t think it’s even close, good horse though Denman was. I would be willing to bet serious money that thirty years from now, only one horse will be remembered as a legend, and the wind will whisper "Kauto"
Thanks for the good crack. Time for me to move on. Be lucky.
Denman never dined at the same tables as Kauto. That is shown from his career prize money of £685,000 whereas Kauto managed to scoff just short of £1.9 million. The ratings show a high of 182 for Denman and 193 for Kauto. When you look at their overall careers I don’t think it’s even close, good horse though Denman was. I would be willing to bet serious money that thirty years from now, only one horse will be remembered as a legend, and the wind will whisper "Kauto"
BOOOOOOOOOOM
Anyone debating check out channel 432. Simples
For those who had read my pre-edited comment I thought I’d better clear it up before it seemed like I was merely advertising
Denman never dined at the same tables as Kauto. That is shown from his career prize money of £685,000 whereas Kauto managed to scoff just short of £1.9 million. The ratings show a high of 182 for Denman and 193 for Kauto. When you look at their overall careers I don’t think it’s even close, good horse though Denman was. I would be willing to bet serious money that thirty years from now, only one horse will be remembered as a legend, and the wind will whisper "Kauto"
BOOOOOOOOOOM
One man’s "BOOOOOOM" is clearly another man’s "pass the sick bucket".
I’m more than willing to take up your offer of betting "serious money", because the wind won’t be whispering jack s%&t!
- You must be logged in to reply to this topic.