June 12, 2009 at 14:13 #11719PompeteMember
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First of all to be absolutely clear what has happened to this young lad and his family is horrendous and I sincerely hope the killers get the longest possible sentence available. However, from when this senseless murder first occurred I’ve been concerned by one issue:
What where these young 16 year olds celebrating finishing their GCSE’s doing in a pub at closing-time with the approval of their parents. And let’s be clear here they were out on the piss, yet nobody seems to have questioned this, in fact even the Daily Mail describe Ben as ‘…enjoying a well-deserved evening out with friends. To celebrate the end of his GCSE exams…’ Well, I’m sorry but when my daughter finished her GCSE’s she got a bunch of flowers and a box of Maltesers from her mother, she most certainly was not allowed to go to the pub with her mates.
Perhaps I’m missing the point here and if I am I happy to be told so but if this young lad’s parents had said ‘no you’re going to the pub’…well things would be different.June 12, 2009 at 15:53 #233527moehatParticipant
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I think it’s totally unfair to put any blame whatsoever on the parents. We all have different rules and standards by which we raise our kids. It may not be what you or I would have allowed, but it still doesn’t mean that the parents were in any way responsible for his death. What did upset me, however, was the news showing the cctv footage of the poor kid staggering down the street just seconds away from dying; I don’t know what showing that achieved; I found it heart breaking. Given that it is now no longer safe to even send a child to nursery, I just despair. My son was mugged and glassed when he went away to uni [as well as being burgled a couple of times]. We all make mistakes as parents. there but for the grace of God etc etc.June 12, 2009 at 16:17 #233530wordfromthewiseParticipant
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Agree with Pompete but respectfully don’t want to go into specifics of individual cases but parenting on both sides of knife crime is definitely an issue.
Non existent parenting is a major factor in the creation of feral youth with no repscet for anyone or anything and 16 year old kids in pubs will never have a satisfactory outcome.June 12, 2009 at 16:28 #233531% MANParticipant
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I have to say I agree with both Pete and Bob.
Despite what some "liberal" parents may profess, a sixteen year old is still a child and they certainly should not be allowed out on the streets, unsupervised, late at night.
When I was sixteen I had to be home by 10:00 at the latest, earlier on school nights, and I also knew if I was late I would be grounded – it was non-negotiable.June 12, 2009 at 18:23 #233550GoldikovaMember
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The saddest things is that many people who kill youngsters who aren’t aspiring actors won’t get 19 years to life. I think the sentence was fair, but why can’t there be consistancy ? In Scotland murder seems to have been replaced by man slaugter quite often, and the perpretrators not getting anywhere near what they should get.June 12, 2009 at 18:38 #233551% MANParticipant
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Life should mean lifeJune 12, 2009 at 19:17 #233556dave jayMember
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He shouldn’t have been out drinking.
The people with the knives are just thick twats .. they should just lynch a few of them and calm it all down a bit.June 12, 2009 at 19:41 #233560DroneParticipant
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Must say I had the same thoughts as Pompete
In addition, why was the pub serving a group of sixteen year olds any drinks at that time of night, let alone alcohol? I thought pubs were strict on ID these days, if one believe’s they actually enforce the ‘no ID no service’ type signs prominently displayed in them.
Have the police questioned the landlord, and if not why not?
No wish to get involved in a ‘life should mean life’ debate but have to admit being surprised by the on-the-face-of-it lenient 19 year minimum sentences given for such a ghastly crime, particularly as there’s been several 30+ year sentences dished out recently for murders and terrorism.
Because they were teenagers themselves and therefore, in the opinion of the judge, not quite ‘mature’ enough to be wholly responsible for their actions to warrant locking up and ‘throwing away the key’ perhaps.June 13, 2009 at 00:18 #233594HimselfParticipant
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Perhaps I’m missing the point here and if I am I happy to be told so but if this young lad’s parents had said ‘no you’re going to the pub’…well things would be different.
You are missing the point – big time !
Irrespective of the rights and wrongs of Ben Kinsella being allowed to go celebrating with his friends, the fact remains that he did not asked to be stabbed, let alone murdered.
The animals who murdered this poor young man are the ones solely to blame in all of this.
Gambling Only Pays When You're WinningJune 13, 2009 at 00:53 #233602ZarkavaParticipant
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Am disgusted only that a chance for parole comes about in just 19 years. Like Paul says, life should mean life and I believe in certain circumstances where the defendants are 100% guilty without a shadow of a doubt, the death penalty should be used. Why should the tax payer pay for these 3 animals to stay in prison? They don’t deserve to breathe our air.
The fact that he was underage is irrelevant. The 3 ‘men’ still had knives on them and they were still willing to use them, and I expect they didn’t ask for ID before they stabbed him 11 times in 5 seconds.June 13, 2009 at 12:35 #233653PompeteMember
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To expand on my opening post and some of the replies, I’m not and I don’t believe anybody else on here is trying to apportion any blame on the family. Rather, I take the view that we as a society at the very least owe it to the victim of this horrendous crime to examine all of the circumstances surrounding it, in addition to prosecuting and punishing those responsible.
Yet, it seems to me the circumstances leading up the murder has been wholly disregarded, certainly by the media, and it would appear by the police too. It is this I find puzzling.
The seeping liberalism that has spread across the country in the last 30 years or so has been done without debate and without our consent. If 16 year olds in pub celerbrating whatever, is now the norm and acceptable and therefore not open to be questioned then I don’t know when this happened – nobody asked me and it is true I have missed the point.
Still, I’m off down the allotment, these things are too weighty for me.June 13, 2009 at 13:18 #233659FriggoMember
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In Scotland murder seems to have been replaced by man slaugter quite often, and the perpretrators not getting anywhere near what they should get.
1) Last I was aware, there is no such crime in Scotland as ‘Manslaughter’.
2) I’d imagine it’s almost certainly the case that the ‘not proven’ verdict that exists in Scots’ Law creates situations whereby murder cannot be proven, but culpable homicide can.June 13, 2009 at 13:58 #233668GoldikovaMember
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You say tomato….June 13, 2009 at 23:12 #233742Love DivineMember
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Life should mean life if we are not going to have capital punishment, which I think we should. They went out with knives-why? ‘Cos it makes ’em ‘ard?
I sometimes despair of the youth of today purely because of the minority that are this type of thug.
I do also thing that the point about the landlord is a good one. If landlords didn’t serve them , they wouldn’t go there and would have to do something else. They are breaking the law and should be dealt with as such whatever the circumstances.
I was given £5 when I passed my o levels. We didn’t go to the pub – wouldn’t have occurred to me to ask. A young relative who recently passed
his A Levels went out for a meal with his parents, and then on a weekend ‘bender’ to the Reading Festival with his friends. He has been allowed to go to pubs since he was 14. Generally he is a very well behaved, law abiding ‘nice’ young man. When I said to his mother at the time I thought he was too young to be allowed to do it, she agreed but his father did not, as it seems a lot of the parents of his friends.
What happened to Ben was terrible, as have been all the young deaths recently highlighted, but they don’t seem to be stopping. Would a death sentence be a deterent? Probably not but we’ll never know it seems.June 13, 2009 at 23:31 #233747IanMember
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As Himself says regardless of what Ben should or shouldn’t have been doing he should certainly not have been stabbed. The only people to blame here are the repulsive scum responsible.
Bring back the death penalty and award proper justice. Ben won’t get 19 years of death.June 14, 2009 at 12:38 #233816wordfromthewiseParticipant
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IMO I think we have to deal with the real issues long before we get to the death sentence stage.
Take a significant number of unwanted,unloved,indisciplined and I’m afraid to say probably should never have been born children that an under resourced not fit for purpose education system can’t ‘turn around’ ,add in some unhelpful cultural and media influences ( negative message music,film,tv,video games etc that combine with a general something for nothing ‘get rich or die trying’ culture plus a wholesale downturn in old fashioned good manners,self discipline and respect for each other and you will produce these outcomes in a minority of cases.
We need to reform the education system at a basic level so that kids aren’t having children and being non existent parents or commiting crime because they don’t have anything better to do.Everybody must leave the education system with their self esteem and self worth and respect for other people sky high. Its boring but its back to basics I’m afraid.Words like ‘please’ thank you,sorry and excuse me become the most important words in the language for everyone.
Culturally we need to raise the bar and watch what influences and values we expose our children to and try to keep those influences positive or at least non negative as a starter get the badly motivated crap off of the television,off of the ipods and out of the game consoles.
Alas it may be too late for a minority of the current generation however if we get the systems right for the future we can stop the problem repeating itself for the next generation.June 14, 2009 at 13:39 #233824moehatParticipant
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The negative music was a result of the problem, not a cause imo., although I agree that it now feeds it. As for the death penalty issue, that is just a sweeping statement used by many as a solution. I’m not aware of the death penalty being a deterrent in America, but thats another issue and one that has been discussed many times. The people that have been put in prison for 19 years never thought that would happen to them, so why should the death penanlty have stopped them?. All it does is make juries terrified of sentencing someone who may possibly be innocent, and being more likely to reach a verdict of not guilty in more cases [could you live with the thought that your decision had taken the life of an innocent person?]. I can’t agree that the schools aren’t trying, because my daughter is a teacher, and, believe me she does everything she can to help kids achieve their full potential. But I do agree that we have lost a basic decency and respect for others in this country that needs to be replaced, at an early age and in schools if it isn’t being taught at home. Maybe there’s more that each and every one of us could do in our own way, rather than just talking about it; are there local charities that help young people that could do with some support? Perhaps, although we are all a bit tired of politicians at the moment, there are some at a local level that are doing what they can and need some support also? Perhaps we all think that, yes, it is a problem but it’s someone else’s problem. Sorry, it’s a Sunday and I sound like I’m preaching, but I’m just thinking out loud.
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