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Regarding Pistolet Noir, in addition to the early part of the race Ruby used the whip to discourage the horse from wandering between the last two fences and, in the respect that it has a use ininstances like that, there is a case for keeping the whip as an aid.
Cormack,
From your comments above I thought you wanted whips to be carried as an aid, to stop horses wandering. In the same way as what would happen at Epsom, stopping horses wandering down the camber. Yet you are now opposed to the whip being used in such cases?
If you don’t want whips to be carried or used, then it will be dangerous and unworkable.
Mark
Value Is EverythingGT –
Yes, clearly if there is a rule stating that a horse is not to be hit with a whip and the jockey does hit it with a whip then it should be disqualified.
I’m not sure what you’re getting at about the Derby but if you’re asking whether the jockeys would be allowed to hit the horse to keep it in a straight line then, no they wouldn’t. Yes, horses who remained straight would be at an advantage.
This seems to suggest you are against ANY use of the whip, is that the case? Or does the horse need to actually be dangerous to others to be allowed the whip?
If a jockey has to wait until the horse moves (wanders) sufficiently for the stewards to see; that in turn will make things more dangerous. The later a jockey can make a correction, the more dangerous race riding will be. Jockeys may even allow their mount to wander so they can "correct it". Where will the line be drawn?
Value Is EverythingAaaaaaargh!!!!!
As outlined (I thought) I recognise that it might be useful to have the whip as an aid, as with Pistolet Noir where Ruby waved it to discourage the horse from running off into the sunset. But I wouldn’t allow horses to be hit with it.
Carrying, waving, twirling in acrobat fashion after a Group 1 win – all YES. Using it to hit the horse – NO.
And, before you ask the inevitable question, the stewards would police – using their judgement.
I’m not sure my case will ever be watertight enough for you GT (now I have an inkling of how those questioned under the Spanish Inquisition felt) and I think everyone has the gist now.
I GIVE IN!
What a F****n thread!
I might have guessed the Ginger Police would be involved somewhere, preaching from the moral high ground! 
Aaaaaaargh!!!!!
As outlined (I thought) I recognise that it might be useful to have the whip as an aid, as with Pistolet Noir where Ruby waved it to discourage the horse from running off into the sunset. But I wouldn’t allow horses to be hit with it.
Carrying, waving, twirling in acrobat fashion after a Group 1 win – all YES. Using it to hit the horse – NO.
And, before you ask the inevitable question, the stewards would police – using their judgement.
I’m not sure my case will ever be watertight enough for you GT (now I have an inkling of how those questioned under the Spanish Inquisition felt) and I think everyone has the gist now.
I GIVE IN!
Even stewards need guidelines, just wondered what those guidelines would be Corm. But if you don’t want to continue the debate then don’t.
Had you said in your first post "I think the whip should be carried, but never used under any circumstances, only waved". Then it would have saved me a good deal of wasted time on this thread. As it was, talking about carrying it as an "aid" I thought meant using it only when absolutely necessary, when danger loomed.
I MISUNDERSTOOD!
I am sorry I could not understand your words and asked too many questions on your discussion forum. My mistake.
Value Is EverythingMay I suggest a useful new resource be added to the site: a FAQ or more precisely a FAT – Frequently Asked Thread
There’s been innumerable Whip threads on this forum and worthwhile, interesting points have been raised the by the few who’ve managed to draw breath while spinning in the circuitous ever-decreasing whirlpool
so a facility to quickly point posters in the direction of these would I feel sure be welcome.Ditto the ‘Will We Ever See Their Likes Again’ thread
This is not meant as a slight against more recent recruits, how are they to know what has been discussed before? But it may serve to prevent repetition of chat still fresh in many members’ memories, and help ensure these past debates are added to rather than just re-hashed
Then again there’s only a finite number of subjects in the little world of racing that can be chewed-over, so repetition is perhaps inevitable
what goes around comes around
What a F****n thread!
I might have guessed the Ginger Police would be involved somewhere, preaching from the moral high ground! What took you so long TAPK? 6 pages before you come up with that exact same post yet again.
If I were on the other side of this debate, you’d still accuse me of "taking the moral high ground", yet again.
Sorry mate, it’s just my opinion, Can’t help but be interested in the welfare of horses. So….
Value Is EverythingFar be it from me to want to intercede but I just sense this topic has been flogged to death with whips, cat o’nine tails, cudgels etc. I think it’s time to lay down one’s arms and whips and sail off into the sunset.
KGT –
.
This seems to suggest you are against ANY use of the whip, is that the case? Or does the horse need to actually be dangerous to others to be allowed the whip?
If a jockey has to wait until the horse moves (wanders) sufficiently for the stewards to see; that in turn will make things more dangerous. The later a jockey can make a correction, the more dangerous race riding will be. Jockeys may even allow their mount to wander so they can "correct it". Where will the line be drawn?
NO ONE SHOULD GET ON A HORSE WITHOUT A WHIP IN HAND. ITS A TERRIBLE EXAMPLE TO GIVE CHILDREN AND YOUNG RIDERS AS IT POTENTIALLY VERY DANGEROUS. I DONT HONESTLY KNOW WHAT FRANCOME IS THINKING.
SHL
May I suggest a useful new resource be added to the site: a FAQ or more precisely a FAT – Frequently Asked Thread
There’s been innumerable Whip threads on this forum and worthwhile, interesting points have been raised the by the few who’ve managed to draw breath while spinning in the circuitous ever-decreasing whirlpool so a facility to quickly point posters in the direction of these would I feel sure be welcome.
Ditto the ‘Will We Ever See Their Likes Again’ thread
This is not meant as a slight against more recent recruits, how are they to know what has been discussed before? But it may serve to prevent repetition of chat still fresh in many members’ memories, and help ensure these past debates are added to rather than just re-hashed
Then again there’s only a finite number of subjects in the little world of racing that can be chewed-over, so repetition is perhaps inevitable
what goes around comes around
What might help prevent (arguably) superfluous starting of new threads on well-worn subjects is if the Forum’s Search facility could be taken a look at, as I’m not convinced it’s functioning entirely accurately at present.
I have frequent need to go back to threads from years ago for research and writing purposes, but even at its most generous settings the Search facility is currently struggling to bring up anything older than a year (and believe me, I’ve tried some stick-on search terms to bring back a lot of my old rubbish, e.g. "Cartmel" and "Quixall"!)
Any chance the Forum technical bods could take a look at this, please, Corm? Methinks the algorithms must need a bit of a tweak. Thanks in advance.
gc
Jeremy Grayson. Son of immigrant. Adoptive father of two. Metadata librarian. Freelance point-to-point / horse racing writer, analyst and commentator wonk. Loves music, buses, cats, the BBC Micro, ale. Advocate of CBT, PACE and therapeutic parenting. Aspergers.
A couple of questions.
Do all riders carry whips when they are riding work ?
Are young horses "made aware" of the whip before they step foot on a racecourse ?
Happy asked…Out of interest Ken, has there ever been a one armed jockey?
Interesting that you should ask that, Happy. Quite often I’ve watched the horse I’ve backed unsuccessfully and noticed that only one of the jockey’s arms appears to be moving on the reins. Coincidentally, it always seems to be the arm that is facing the camera and so I imagine the Stewards are satisfied the horse has been ridden out to full effect. It might just be my imagination, mind you!
But only recently I heard a punter complaining as he walked out of the bookies, "those "!;?"! one-armed bandits do my head in!"
K
p.s. But just one final point on this thread:
In 1856 when Ellington won the Derby, his jockey carried a whip weighing seven pounds. Then it was optional to weigh out with or without the whip. It was not unknown for whips to be loaded with quicksilver and exchanges made after the race.A couple of questions.
Do all riders carry whips when they are riding work ?
Are young horses "made aware" of the whip before they step foot on a racecourse ?
BY and large yes to the original question I would have thought. Even at the very initial stage of getting up on a horse a stick is used for continual patting. Probably one of the most common reasons a horse will actually dump its rider at stage of breaking is actually that the rider sits too quietly, and the horse almost forgets his there and any even small movement at that stage can cause a fright.
SHL
I’m fairly new to these forums so apologies if this has been said before. I watched the debate on Channel 4 last week with interest. I’ve owned and ridden horses, albeit showjumpers, for 40+ years and carry a whip 99 % of the time. In particular I would never go out hacking without one, when it would be in my right hand, between me and the traffic – so if the horse spooks at something in the hedge, a quick slap on the neck can stop it wandering into the traffic. When jumping, I would use it if a horse was backing off a fence, or if I was a bit far off on take-off and needed a bit of extra effort – all to stop the horse possibly having an accident and as a back up to leg aids. I enjoy watching NH racing and am not in the "it should all be banned camp". I do not enjoy, however, the sight of jockeys repeatedly hitting an exhausted horse that has no chance of winning, at the end of a race. Personally, I would like to see whips carried and being able to be used until after the last fence or hurdle in NH and, say, the last furlong in a flat race.
Very insightful and useful points, Mort. More power to your elbow.
Happy, I can’t say for sure I saw him using it but I remember collecting my winnings of two sovereigns which helped me to purchase my first penny-farthing bicycle.
KMort, i agree with you in the sense that you have a whip at all times when you are either hacking or schooling.
I am the same, some horses are not good in traffic and can spook or just plant themselves, not something you want if you are on a single track with ditches either side.
I personally think using the whip is fine if it is kept within the rules.
Use, not abuse.
I’m fairly new to these forums so apologies if this has been said before. I watched the debate on Channel 4 last week with interest. I’ve owned and ridden horses, albeit showjumpers, for 40+ years and carry a whip 99 % of the time. In particular I would never go out hacking without one, when it would be in my right hand, between me and the traffic – so if the horse spooks at something in the hedge, a quick slap on the neck can stop it wandering into the traffic. When jumping, I would use it if a horse was backing off a fence, or if I was a bit far off on take-off and needed a bit of extra effort – all to stop the horse possibly having an accident and as a back up to leg aids. I enjoy watching NH racing and am not in the "it should all be banned camp". I do not enjoy, however, the sight of jockeys repeatedly hitting an exhausted horse that has no chance of winning, at the end of a race. Personally, I would like to see whips carried and being able to be used until after the last fence or hurdle in NH and, say, the last furlong in a flat race.
I think some people dont realise that a stick can be used for really quite subtle communication with a horse and is not just for beating the lard with one.
When you say leg aids, do you mean the type of spurs?? I used them years ago but I wasn’t crazy about them, especially on the younger horses.
SHL
I might have guessed the Ginger Police would be involved somewhere, preaching from the moral high ground! 
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