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lol@ Ken –
GT – I think Stilvi is right – we are going round the houses now. I have my view, which I belive to be right, you have yours, which you believe to be right. We’ve presented our arguments and I think we’ll have to beg to differ on this for fear of sending the rest of the forum into apoplexy.
Richard Dunwoody would have won the 1990 Irish National without a whip! Adrian Maguire would defineately have lost the 1991 Irish National without it! Therefore the whip is as essential as the jockey in my humblest!
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Regarding Pistolet Noir, in addition to the early part of the race Ruby used the whip to discourage the horse from wandering between the last two fences and, in the respect that it has a use in instances like that, there is a case for keeping the whip as an aid.
Case closed then, surely? If there’s a case for it, then it must stay.
I agree that without it, Pistolet Noir would have been a danger to himself, his jockey, his rivals, and quite possibly – from some of his antics – the crowd.
The whip contributes to safety, no doubt of it.
[Thank you by the way for sharing your nice reply to your daughter. I’m sure she’s well on the way to becoming a bearer of the racing torch for years to come!]
Yes, but the article in biggest danger from Pistolet Noir is my wallet, following my having supported him for the Triumph. He’s more likely to win an award as ‘Most promising equine psychiatric case 2010’ than the season’s top juvenile novice event I’m afraid.
Ginger leaving the whip debate aside for a second I completely agree with you with regards to summer jumping I too would ban it. Winter good to firm I can cope with but summer fast ground is a different thing and I don’t think it is right to subject horses to innevitable falls on that sort of ground.
Ginger leaving the whip debate aside for a second I completely agree with you with regards to summer jumping I too would ban it. Winter good to firm I can cope with but summer fast ground is a different thing and I don’t think it is right to subject horses to innevitable falls on that sort of ground.
In the USA the jumps season is March-November, and I don’t think there’s any higher rate of injuries.
Surely the consideration of banning whips altogether would mean events like Badminton and the like ceasing to exist with immediate effect?
Jumping obstacles is one thing – as the OP mentioned – but literally forcing a horse down sheer banks and other acts of ‘cruelty’ in the name of sport should also be met with the same sympathetic approach, no? That would, at the very least, be consistent IMO.
You can’t "force" a horse to do anything. In a battle between a man and a horse, the horse wins every time, whip or no whip. It’s incredibly easy for a horse to dump a rider at anytime, no matter how good the rider is. That’s just the nature of working with a half-ton animal.
"I would be interested to hear from anyone who may have figures of fatalities for Summer jumpers and Winter jumpers."
Happy, I have no stats for you but I was talking to a horse-ambulance driver some years ago and he was in no doubt that "summer jumping" was top of the list for casualties.
Colin
Using the ‘Raw Data’ from the Death Watch Database on the Animal Aid website, since 13th March 2007:
# 11 Horses have been destroyed having raced on Firm going.
# 113 have been destroyed having raced on Good to Firm – 42 of which where during the months of June to August (inclusive) of which 13 where on the Flat.
# In compraision 53 have been destroyed on Soft going during the same period.Of course these figures are open to a deeper level of anaylsis for a truer picture.
Don’t know how you worked out the figures were better for good-firm Happy? Seem to be more fatalities on good-firm.
There is much more racing on softer ground than a firm surface. I talked to an equine vet involved with racing. He told me there is a 60% increase in injury / fatalities on a firm surface compared to a soft one. Whether that is right or not, I don’t know.
On a firm surface horses are travelling faster in to an obstacle. When they do fall the ground is harder too. It stands to reason falling on a hard surface, at a greater speed will damage bones etc more often.Value Is Everythinglol@ Ken –
GT – I think Stilvi is right – we are going round the houses now. I have my view, which I belive to be right, you have yours, which you believe to be right. We’ve presented our arguments and I think we’ll have to beg to differ on this for fear of sending the rest of the forum into apoplexy.
Back to the whip debate:
Can see there is no point going over whether the whip should or should not be used, again Corm.
However, am disappointed nobody in the anti-whip side has said how it can work in practical terms.Value Is EverythingHow is this new whip rule going to work?
Conditionals and apprentices do not want to do anything to annoy other trainers and connections. I don’t bet in h+h races, but what happens if a jockey does use the whip in the conventional manner? Is he disqualified?
In your no-whip rules, Is a horse disqualified if a jockey uses the whip?Let’s take the Epsom Derby as an example:
A race worth a considerable sum, worth bending the rules for. On an undulating course where horses often wander down the camber. How do stewards know the occasions where a horse would remain straight without the use of a whip; and those who would wander down the camber? Are stewards going to disqualify the first 5 home? Any horse who remains straight and is not allowed a whip is at a disadvantage.How can it be policed?
With your rules many more horses will not race. With a smaller group of horses capable of winning (genuine racehorses winning a greater percentage). Inevitably there will be a larger group of worthless horses, so there won’t be enough places away from racing to find them a home. Are you prepared to see a possible increase of racehorses destroyed as a result of this new whip rule?
Hopefully someone, Ian or Cormack perhaps, can answer the above questions. Particularly interested in the Epsom Derby one.
Value Is EverythingGT –
Yes, clearly if there is a rule stating that a horse is not to be hit with a whip and the jockey does hit it with a whip then it should be disqualified.
I’m not sure what you’re getting at about the Derby but if you’re asking whether the jockeys would be allowed to hit the horse to keep it in a straight line then, no they wouldn’t. Yes, horses who remained straight would be at an advantage.
I doubt very much whether the number of individual horses winning races as a % of the horse population would increase and I don’t believe your scenario of large amounts of horses being taken out of training if a ‘no whip’ rule was introduced would occur.
Being a legendary Armchair Jockey,i would state my reputation that if every Jockey in the weighing room was asked if they would rather race without a whip, 99% would say No chance! Richard Hughes would be the only one to say he doesn"t need a whip,because he cant use it anyway!
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It is tedious to go round the houses, and yet this is one of those issues which the Animal Aid minority simply will not allow to go away, drip feeding the media until (a) the whip, and ultimately (z) horse racing are banned completely.
It is the anti-brigade who keep bringing it back, stone cold though it is, to the table. Maybe, as with internet trolls, the authorities’ trick should be simply not to rise to the bait. As it is, they are damned if they do and damned if they don’t.
Let me put a very specific question for the anti-brigade to address:
What would the expert horseman on board have been able to do on Saturday to stop Pistolet Noir’s antics being a danger to himself, his jockey, and their rivals, had he not had that limited recourse to the whip, as blessed by the RSPCA?
You can’t "force" a horse to do anything. In a battle between a man and a horse, the horse wins every time, whip or no whip. It’s incredibly easy for a horse to dump a rider at anytime, no matter how good the rider is. That’s just the nature of working with a half-ton animal.
You can’t force a
certain type
of horse to do anything, but then this kind are considered useless and never get the chance to race or perform in any arena. In cases like this, the horse wins (if only that were true!)
Are you saying that unless a horse dumps its rider as an expression of refusal, anything goes?
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