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A golden NH era?

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  • #544
    The Market Man
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    • Total Posts 396

    2m Hurdler – Detroit City<br>Staying Chases – Kauto Star<br>Staying Hurdlers – Black Jack Ketchum

    <br>Are we beginning a golden NH era or are we heading for a big disappointment?

    #33299
    Aidan
    Member
    • Total Posts 1198

    A very good question TMM!!!

    #33300
    The Market Man
    Member
    • Total Posts 396

    Yeah. You never know till after the event really do you?

    I wasn’t born in 1971 but I wonder if racing fans truely realised what they were seeing with Mill Reef and the Brigadier?

    #33301
    Aidan
    Member
    • Total Posts 1198

    We just had the big three in the 2 mile division (Moscow, Azertyuiop and Well Chief)while Baracouda, Limestone Lad and Iris’s Gift were all exceptional staying hurdlers. It looked for a while as though we could have titanic clashes in the 3 mile division but the loss of Best Mate, Kicking King have knocked it abit.

    Certainly NH racing seems to be seeing plenty of top class horses recently.

    #33302
    The Market Man
    Member
    • Total Posts 396

    I’m going to be controversial now lol but I don’t think Best Mate was anywhere near as good as some people made him out to be. Ok he won three Gold Cups and by doing that that in itself can’t be argued with but what did he ever beat that was geuninely top class and loved the conditions of the Gold Cup? Best Mate was arguably no better than any other staying chaser at 3 miles, was very vulnerable at any trip under 3 miles and won Gold Cups basically because everything was in his favour at Cheltenham and he loved the conditions of the race whereas anything else top class didn’t i.e. Florida Pearl, Beef Or Salmon.

    #33303
    highflyer1
    Participant
    • Total Posts 210

    Nothing controversial there, TMM. The NH community is sharply divided on Best Mate’s status. I, like you, am in the Doubters’ camp. A top-class staying chaser he was unquestionably, but never one of the "greats".

    #33304
    dave jay
    Member
    • Total Posts 3386

    I totally disagree Best Mate was top notch, out stayed everything that was thrown at him.

    #33305
    clivex
    Member
    • Total Posts 3420

    Few horses actually jumped better than Best Mate and i was suprised the other day to see that he never finished out of the first two in any race at all

    Sure he was campaigned conservatively and yes, its debatable what he beat at times, but that was some record…..

    A hennessey or whitbread would have franked his CV maybe (although interesting on forums, how the same has not been asked of some other top class horses).

    #33306
    SwallowCottage
    Member
    • Total Posts 1008

    I think that the argument about how good Best Mate was will go on for some time. He was a superbly consistent horse and a great jumper who had the ability to travel well in his races, jump soundly and then produce an extra gear at the business end. On good decent ground he was a very difficult horse to beat.<br>He won the Gold Cup at the age of 7 and won all 3 Gold Cups that he participated in. My personal opinion is that he should be remembered for being one of the best chasers ever but not quite in the same class as horses such as Golden Miller or Arkle.  

    #33307
    NWRA
    Member
    • Total Posts 259

    Quote: from The Market Man on 4:30 pm on Dec. 10, 2006[br]I’m going to be controversial now lol but I don’t think Best Mate was anywhere near as good as some people made him out to be. Ok he won three Gold Cups and by doing that that in itself can’t be argued with but what did he ever beat that was geuninely top class and loved the conditions of the Gold Cup? Best Mate was arguably no better than any other staying chaser at 3 miles, was very vulnerable at any trip under 3 miles and won Gold Cups basically because everything was in his favour at Cheltenham and he loved the conditions of the race whereas anything else top class didn’t i.e. Florida Pearl, Beef Or Salmon.

    <br>

    <br>RE: ‘controversial’. I know the idea that the Internet is a repressive, censorious system, and you’re a hip young iconoclast here to bring The Truth to the brainwashed masses, is quite attractive, but… hark! didn’t people on here used to criticise Best Mate every other week while the horse was still alive?

    Anyway, to your point; there are a few mistakes…

    Yes, Best Mate’s ability seemed to decline as time passed, and subsequently he ended his career on a downer. However, far too many watchers have forgotten how classy he once was.

    Personally, I think when he first started chasing, Best Mate was as impressive as Kauto Star has been in his recent performances. He was effortlessly cruising to victory in races at two miles (The Independent Novices Chase at Chelt., The Haldon Gold Cup), before he started winning Gold Cups.

    And one of his greatest performances was in Ireland, The Ericsson Chase, where he easily beat Beef Or Salmon in the conditions the latter loves.

    Search for the horse on the RP website. They have the evidence!

    I always thought it was harsh to criticise Knight for the way she campaigned Best Mate. If he was more vigorously campaigned, he probably wouldn’t have achieved what he did. Some horses can’t take that much racing in competitive 3m+ chases; look at Kicking King, etc (and the way the subject did, y’know, collapse and die during a race).<br> <br>Oh, and the whole ‘Best Mate didn’t beat much’ thing. Now, when most of them have retired, and we have the benefit of hindsight, we forget that, at the time, many of the horses had potential and promise, and were threats; The Gold Cups seemed fairly open. But we only selectively remember the greats of the past, and not the horses who chased their shadows. The fields that Kicking King and War Of Attrition beat, and the majority of the horses in the antepost betting for next year’s Gold Cup, will not be thought of anymore favourably; and in the future will be unfairly remembered as having been ‘no hopers’. <br>

    #33308
    The Market Man
    Member
    • Total Posts 396

    Quote: from NWRA on 9:50 pm on Dec. 10, 2006[br]

    Quote: from The Market Man on 4:30 pm on Dec. 10, 2006[br]I’m going to be controversial now lol but I don’t think Best Mate was anywhere near as good as some people made him out to be. Ok he won three Gold Cups and by doing that that in itself can’t be argued with but what did he ever beat that was geuninely top class and loved the conditions of the Gold Cup? Best Mate was arguably no better than any other staying chaser at 3 miles, was very vulnerable at any trip under 3 miles and won Gold Cups basically because everything was in his favour at Cheltenham and he loved the conditions of the race whereas anything else top class didn’t i.e. Florida Pearl, Beef Or Salmon.

    <br>

    <br>RE: ‘controversial’. I know the idea that the Internet is a repressive, censorious system, and you’re a hip young iconoclast here to bring The Truth to the brainwashed masses, is quite attractive, but… hark! didn’t people on here used to criticise Best Mate every other week while the horse was still alive?

    Anyway, to your point; there are a few mistakes…

    Yes, Best Mate’s ability seemed to decline as time passed, and subsequently he ended his career on a downer. However, far too many watchers have forgotten how classy he once was.

    Personally, I think when he first started chasing, Best Mate was as impressive as Kauto Star has been in his recent performances. He was effortlessly cruising to victory in races at two miles (The Independent Novices Chase at Chelt., The Haldon Gold Cup), before he started winning Gold Cups.

    And one of his greatest performances was in Ireland, The Ericsson Chase, where he easily beat Beef Or Salmon in the conditions the latter loves.

    Search for the horse on the RP website. They have the evidence!

    I always thought it was harsh to criticise Knight for the way she campaigned Best Mate. If he was more vigorously campaigned, he probably wouldn’t have achieved what he did. Some horses can’t take that much racing in competitive 3m+ chases; look at Kicking King, etc (and the way the subject did, y’know, collapse and die during a race).<br> <br>Oh, and the whole ‘Best Mate didn’t beat much’ thing. Now, when most of them have retired, and we have the benefit of hindsight, we forget that, at the time, many of the horses had potential and promise, and were threats; The Gold Cups seemed fairly open. But we only selectively remember the greats of the past, and not the horses who chased their shadows. The fields that Kicking King and War Of Attrition beat, and the majority of the horses in the antepost betting for next year’s Gold Cup, will not be thought of anymore favourably; and in the future will be unfairly remembered as having been ‘no hopers’. <br>

    <br>Your reference to Kauto Star – Best Mate never won a Grade 1 over two miles. At three miles he was beaten 7 lengths by Beef Or Salmon at levels in Ireland, scraped home a short head ahead of the less than great Seebald giving only four pounds at Exeter. At two and a half miles he was firmly put in his place by Jair Du Cochet and even beaten by Wahiba Sands. Ok he gave six pounds that day but it was hardly the performance of a great.

    His three Gold Cups – he beat into second Sir Rembrandt and Truckers Tavern horses that could barely win in handicap company and Commanche Court.

    The question is at 2m4f – 3m would Best Mate have beaten either Desert Orchid or Kauto Star? I don’t think he’d have got within ten lengths of either.

    #33309
    SwallowCottage
    Member
    • Total Posts 1008

    I think that it’s too early to be talking about Kauto Star as a champion.<br>Would Best Mate have beaten Desert Orchid over 2m4f – 3m . At Cheltenham – YES.  At Kempton – NO.  

    #33310
    seabird
    Participant
    • Total Posts 2924

    Welcome to the forum, NWRA.

    Colin

    #33311
    The Market Man
    Member
    • Total Posts 396

    Quote: from SwallowCottage on 10:21 pm on Dec. 10, 2006[br]I think that it’s too early to be talking about Kauto Star as a champion.<br>Would Best Mate have beaten Desert Orchid over 2m4f – 3m . At Cheltenham – YES.  At Kempton – NO.  <br>

    <br>Dessie was placed over 2 miles at Cheltenham more than once. I think he’d’ve possibly still beaten Best Mate at Cheltenham even though he was well below his best there.

    Kauto Star I agree he’s got to win the big races first but talentwise he’s way better than Best Mate. Interestingly after only one three mile performance RPR and BHB already have Kauto Star way higher rated than Best Mate.

    #33312
    The Market Man
    Member
    • Total Posts 396

    By the way – hello and welcome NWRA.

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