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I am positive we will be able to reach an unanimous consensus in less than a page…
Tuesday
Supreme Novices’ Hurdle
Arkle Chase
Three Mile Handicap Chase
Champion Hurdle
National Hunt Chase
Novices’ Handicap ChaseWednesday
Baring Bingham Novices’ Hurdle
RSA Novices’ Chase
Intermediate Handicap Hurdle
Champion Chase
Cross Country Chase
Juvenile Handicap Hurdle
BumperThursday
Golden Miller Novices’ Chase
Three Mile Handicap Hurdle
*New* Veterans Chase
Stayers’ Hurdle
Fulke Walwyn Kim Muir
Martin Pipe Conditional Hurdle
Intermediate Handicap ChaseFriday
Triumph Hurdle
Grand Annual
Spa Novices’ Hurdle
Gold Cup
Foxhunters’ Chase
County HurdleNo mares races, switch the mares hurdle to Cheltenham’s April meeting. No intermediate “championship” races as the Melling Chase and Aintree Hurdles are more than sufficient championship races. Intermediate novice races are fine since novice campaigns should still afford the opportunity for exploration and experimentation.
I know your tongue is firmly in its cheek with the first line BH lol
My own opinion is that I don’t enjoy these discussions, and there’s been a lot of them on here, but this is my thoughts….
I would leave as is.
Like everyone one else I was dismayed when it went to four days, but it’s been four days for the best part of fifteen years now. People go on about the three days, as if it was just the other day it got changed.
Some people would have you believe that it was wall to wall Championship Races. It wasn’t.
The three days was better, no argument there, but the four days still works ok, just and no more, but like everyone else, I wouldn’t want five.
Probably the worst thing I read is the endless droning on an on about Races like The Ryanair diluting The Championship Races. It really hasn’t. The Ryanair has been a total success. You’d think that before The Ryanair, The Champion Chase used to be a 25 Runner Race, full to the brim with genuine G1 performers the way some people go on.
PS I’ll just go with your line up, though I’m happy with the way it is now.
PPS I’d bet good money on The Kim Muir getting the chop, as much as I love that race.
PPPPPS Please note that I said that I preferred the three days, I cannot stress that enough lol
I’ll keep with your races BH but move the order around a bit
Tuesday
Supreme Novices’ Hurdle
Three Mile Handicap Chase
County Hurdle
Arkle Chase
National Hunt Chase
Novices’ Handicap ChaseWednesday
Baring Bingham Novices’ Hurdle
Intermediate Handicap Hurdle
Grand Annual
RSA Novices’ Chase
Cross Country Chase
Juvenile Handicap Hurdle
BumperThursday
Golden Miller Novices’ Chase
Three Mile Handicap Hurdle
*New* Veterans Chase
Triumph Hurdle
Fulke Walwyn Kim Muir
Martin Pipe Conditional Hurdle
Intermediate Handicap ChaseFriday
Spa Novices’ Hurdle
Stayers Hurdle
Champion Chase
Champion Hurdle
Gold Cup
Foxhunters’ ChaseBlackbeard to conquer the World
“Probably the worst thing I read is the endless droning on an on about Races like The Ryanair diluting The Championship Races. It really hasn’t. The Ryanair has been a total success.”
That, to me, is a ridiculous statement. You’ve only got to look at some of the winners you say “haven’t” diluted the quality of the QMCC / GC – Un De Sceaux, Cue Card, Vautour, Imperial Commander – for a start. They would not have added interest / quality to the Championship races? Nonsense.
I’d love to hear how they justified making the race a Grade 1 – after it was ran twice as a Grade 2 and won each time by a horse who had never won an open age Grade 1. Money talks.
BUY THE SUN
The “Cheltenham should go back to three days” crowd really need to get over it. There is no chance of that happening.
As I said elsewhere, I would compromise by having four days but just six races each day. I would lose the Cross Country, Dawn Run, Novice Handicap Chase and one of the Ryanair, Mares Hurdle or the NH Chase. I realise the last has a lot of tradition but I am personally not much of a fan of marathon chases (especially with amateur riders) and this year’s renewal was not pretty.
There is a big difference between 2 miles and 3m2f so why not have a race in between for horses who have a 2 1/2 mile optimum. There’s no doubt they would have added interest but the Ryanair has served up some great memories including the very first with TTAT and Fondmort battling out the finish.
I like Bachelors Hall’s line up a lot, think there’s quite a lot of thought gone into it and feel it is a big improvement on what we currently have
Don’t know why the County Hurdle was ever moved from the closing race of the Festival, it was the ideal race to end with for me, preferably with Mark Johnson commentating Think Nathan must have drawn the races out of a hat lol
The official line on moving the County Hurdle, was to keep the Gold Cup as race four, but also to have no chases run before the Gold Cup, so as to have pristine ground for the championship race. The rails are moved after the racing on Thursday to provide fresh ground on the inside of the chase course.
A cynic like me suspects that actually it was done to get more betting turnover on the County Hurdle by ensuring it would be on terrestrial TV.
I know your tongue is firmly in its cheek with the first line BH lol
It sure was! I assumed someone would reply “your programme is perfect”, someone else would have said “yep, couldn’t possibly improve on that” and that would have been the end of the thread.
In all seriousness though…
The Ryanair has been a total success.
No.
And here’s a fact based deconstruction which will hopefully elucidate the Ryanair’s destructive pointlessness. For each year, I have listed the first five, their official ratings and a plausible justification how they may have been entered at a festival prior to the abolition of the Cathcart. In instances where there is no obvious target, this could be due to a horse not being campaigned at two or three miles rather than evidence of unsuitability to same. Then I posted the official ratings of the first three in that season’s Champion Chase and Gold Cup. After that, I have given the best five performances between eighteen and twenty-two furlongs from that season according to RPR.
2008 Festival Trophy
1. Our Vic (165) – GC – 2nd King George, 2nd Pillar – 1st Aintre Bowl (bt Kauto Star)
2. Mossbank (170) – GC – 2nd Lexus – 3rd Punchestown Gold Cup
3. Turko (155) – GC – 1st Future Stayers, 2nd Irish Hennessy – 4th Charlie Hall
4. Knight Legend (151) – GC – 1st Star Chase
5. The Listener (170) – GC – 3rd Lexus, 1st Irish Hennessy – 1st Down Royal Champion Chase
ORs of CC and GC 1-2-3
170, 169, 152
176, 180, 172
Top intermediate performances of 2007/08
180 Kauto Star 2nd Old Roan Chase
178 Voy Por Ustedes 1st Melling Chase
176 Kauto Star 1st Ascot Chase
171 The Listener 1st Punchestown Chase
169 Racing Demon 1st Peterborough Chase2009 Festival Trophy
1. Imperial Commander (156) – GC – 1st PP Gold Cup – 1st Gold Cup
2. Voy Por Ustedes (172) – CC – 1st, 2nd Champion Chase
3. Schindlers Hunt (159) – CC/GC – 2nd Newlands Chase – 2nd Punchestown Gold Cup
4. Tidal Bay (165) – CC/GC – 1st Arkle, 2nd Tingle Creek – 1st Cleeve Hurdle, 2nd Lancashire Chase
5. Gwanako (154) – Intermediate
ORs of CC and GC 1-2-3
186, 162, 157
177, 182, 174
Top intermediate performances of 2008/09
177 Voy Por Ustedes 1st Ascot Chase
174 Exotic Dancer 2nd Old Roan Chase
173 Voy Por Ustedes 4th Old Roan Chase
170 Voy Por Ustedes 2nd Festival Trophy
169 Imperial Commander 1st Festival Trophy2010 Festival Trophy
1. Albertas Run (162) – GC – 1st RSA, 2nd King George
2. Poquelin (161) – Intermediate
3. J’y Vole (161) – Intermediate
4. Deep Purple (166) – GC – 1st Charlie Hall
5. Voy Por Ustedes (168) – CC – 1st, 2nd Champion Chase
ORs of CC and GC 1-2-3
165, 158, 166
174, 182, 148
Top intermediate performances of 2009/10
170 Albertas Run 1st Festival Trophy
170 Albertas Run 1st Melling Chase
170 Deep Purple 1st Peterborough Chase
167 Poquelin 2nd Festival Trophy
167 Poquelin 1st Boylesports Gold Cup2011 Festival Trophy
1. Albertas Run (166) – GC – 1st RSA, 2nd King George
2. Kalahari King (162) – CC – 2nd Arkle, 3rd Champion Chase
3. Rubi Light (157) – CC/GC – 2nd Normans Grove – 2nd Lexus Chase
4. Poquelin (170) – Intermediate
5. Voy Por Ustedes (155) – CC – 1st, 2nd Champion Chase
ORs of CC and GC 1-2-3
160, 174, 158
179, 179, 174
Top intermediate performances of 2010/11
174 Master Minded 1st Melling Chase
174 Master Minded 1st 1965 Chase
172 Poquelin 1st Vote A.P. Gold Cup
172 Riverside Theatre 1st Ascot Chase
170 Long Run 3rd Paddy Power Gold Cup2012 Festival Trophy
1. Riverside Theatre (168) – GC – 2nd King George
2. Albertas Run (168) – GC – 1st RSA, 2nd King George
3. Medermit (165) – CC – 1st Haldon Gold Cup
4. Captain Chris (164) – CC/GC – 1st Arkle Chase – 2nd King George
5. Rubi Light (168) – CC/GC – 2nd Normans Grove – 2nd Lexus Chase
ORs of CC and GC 1-2-3
164, 177, 169
167, 160, 182
Top intermediate performances of 2011/12
175 Master Minded 1st 1965 Chase
172 Finian’s Rainbow 1st Melling Chase
172 Riverside Theatre 1st Ascot Chase
171 Riverside Theatre 1st Festival Trophy
169 Somersby 2nd 1965 Chase2013 Festival Trophy
1. Cue Card (165) – CC/GC – 1st Haldon Gold Cup – 1st Lancashire Chase
2. First Lieutenant (168) – GC – 2nd RSA, 3rd Hennessy, 2nd Lexus – 1st Aintree Bowl
3. For Non Stop (160) – Intermediate
4. Riverside Theatre (169) – GC – 2nd King George
5. Champion Court (155) – Intermediate
ORs of CC and GC 1-2-3
179, 172, 162
171, 162, 172
Top intermediate performances of 2012/13
190 Sprinter Sacre 1st Melling Chase
178 Cue Card 2nd Melling Chase
176 Cue Card 1st Festival Trophy
173 Al Ferof 1st Paddy Power Gold Cup
172 Menorah 2nd Silver Trophy Chase2014 Festival Trophy
1. Dynaste (169) – GC – 2nd Lancashire Chase – 2nd Aintree Bowl
2. Hidden Cyclone (156) – CC – 2nd Dial a Bet Chase – 1st Tied Cottage Chase
3. Rajdhani Express (155) – Intermediate
4. Hunt Ball (155) – Intermediate
5. Al Ferof (165) – GC – 2x 3rd King George
ORs of CC and GC 1-2-3
169, 164, 157
152, 161, 160
Top intermediate performances of 2013/14
175 Captain Chris 1st Kempton Chase
174 Captain Chris 1st Ascot Chase
172 Menorah 1st Oaksey Chase
168 Al Ferof 1st 1965 Chase
167 Dynaste 1st Festival Trophy2015 Festival Trophy
1. Uxizandre (161) – CC – 1st Shloer Chase – 2nd Clarence House Chase
2. Ma Filleule (156) – GC – 2nd Cheltenham Festival Three Mile Handicap Chase
3. Don Cossack (166) – GC – 1st Star Chase – 1st Gold Cup
4. Eduard (159) – Intermediate
5. Johns Spirit (160) – Intermediate
ORs of CC and GC 1-2-3
171, 161, 160
166, 162, 167
Top intermediate performances of 2014/15
181 Don Cossack 1st Melling Chase
175 Vautour 1st Golden Miller Novices’ Chase
173 Uxizandre 1st Festival Trophy
171 Al Ferof 1st 1965 Chase
169 Don Cossack 3rd Festival Trophy2016 Festival Trophy
1. Vautour (176) – GC – 2nd King George
2. Valseur Lido (161) – GC – 1st Champion Novice Chase – 1st Down Royal Champion Chase
3. Road To Riches (165) – GC – 3rd Gold Cup, 2nd Irish Gold Cup
4. Al Ferof (165) – GC – 2x 3rd King George
5. Gilgamboa (156) – GC – 4th Paddy Power Chase – 4th Grand National
ORs of CC and GC 1-2-3
170, 172, 168
175, 170, 166
Top intermediate performances of 2015/16
175 Djakadam 1st Punchestown Chase
175 Don Cossack 1st Kinloch Brae
175 Vautour 1st Festival Trophy
171 Al Ferof 1st Peterborough Chase
171 Silviniaco Conti 1st Ascot Chase2017 Festival Trophy
1. Un De Sceaux (171) – CC – 1st Tingle Creek, 1st Clarence House
2. Sub Lieutenant (161) – GC – 3rd Champion Novice Chase – 3rd Star Chase
3. Aso (152) – GC – 3rd Betbright Chase, 4th Aintree Bowl
4. Empire Of Dirt (166) – GC – 1st Troytown, 2nd Irish Gold Cup
5. Josses Hill (158) – Intermediate
ORs of CC and GC 1-2-3
159, 166, 158
167, 156, 168
Top intermediate performances of 2016/17
174 Fox Norton 1st Melling Chase
173 Cue Card 1st Ascot Chase
170 Un De Sceaux 1st Festival Trophy
168 Sizing John 1st Kinloch Brae
166 Disko 1st Flogas Novices’ Chase2018 Festival Trophy
1. Balko Des Flos (166) – GC – 2nd Christmas Chase
2. Un De Sceaux (168) – CC – 9x 2m G1 wins
3. Cloudy Dream (157) – CC/GC – 2nd Arkle/Shloer, 2nd Many Clouds/Denman
4. Sub Lieutenant (160) – GC – 3rd Champion Novice Chase – 3rd Star Chase
5. Frodon (162) – GC – 2nd Silver Cup Handicap Chase – 1st Cotswold Chase
ORs of CC and GC 1-2-3
170, 167, 158
166, 169, 159
Top intermediate performances of 2017/18
177 Frodon 1st Cheltenham January Handicap Chase
174 Balko Des Flos 1st Festival Chase
173 Politologue 1st Melling Chase
173 Sizing John 1st Punchestown Chase
172 Min 2nd Melling Chase2019 Festival Trophy
1. Frodon (169) – GC – 1st Cotswold Chase
2. Aso (162) – GC – 4th Aintree Bowl – 3rd Charlie Hall
3. Road To Respect (169) – GC – 1st Christmas Chase, 2 x 1st Down Royal Champion Chase
4. Monalee (163) – GC – 2nd RSA Chase, 2nd Savills Chase
5. Un De Sceaux (168) – CC – 9x 2m G1 wins
ORs of CC and GC 1-2-3
175, 166, 159
164, 164, 173
Top intermediate performances of 2018/19
181 Cyrname 1st Ascot Chase
180 Min 1st Melling Chase
178 Cyrname 1st Class 2 Ascot Handicap Chase
175 Frodon 1st Caspian Caviar Handicap Chase
173 Frodon 1st Festival TrophyThe two key points that can be drawn from this data is that
a) The Ryanair Chase is NOT a championship event
b) Despite its resounding inferiority to the Champion Chase and Gold Cup in terms of prestige, heritage and class, it still regularly detracts from the superior contests.During the twelve years the race has been a Grade One, only twice has it produced the joint best intermediate performance of the season and has never produced a standalone. In 2010, Albertas Run’s best effort still placed him behind Kauto Star, Denman, Imperial Commander, Master Minded, Twist Magic and Big Zeb while in 2016, the joint best intermediate performances were all executed by staying chasers. The middle distances are not a speciality since a horse with sufficient class will be able to run up to or close to its best irrespective of whether or not it is a speedster or a stayer. This is demonstrated by the fact that within this time period, with the exception of Captain Chris (out of a two-miler, placed in two King Georges) the best two and a half mile runs have been performed by either two or three milers. Furthermore, I believe the general versatility of classy racehorses is often understated as there have been many examples of horses being able to produce top class form at both two and three miles when given the opportunity (One Man, Desert Orchid, Kauto Star, Dawn Run). The two and a half mile championship is a false one since it is not an examination of any discernible attribute. A horse that might qualify as a “specialist” is typically one too slow for two miles with insufficient stamina for three. Such a horse’s shyness of top-class is regularly demonstrated by the fact that it will almost always be defeated in a catch-distance contest by the best from the more established categories.
Putting on a two and a half mile championship race is all good and harmless when done so at Aintree a month after Cheltenham. But since it was shoehorned into the festival and given a thoroughly artificial status, the effects have been destructive. Every year, there has been an example of a horse contesting the Ryanair who would have been at least competitive in one of the marque chases. At the very least, the lesser renewals of the big two would have been given more depth. The more heinous examples would include 2009 depriving the Gold Cup field of a future winner while Voy Por Ustedes got to finish runner up in the Ryanair instead of the Champion Chase. In 2013, either Cue Card or First Lieutenant could very easily have taken prize money in that year’s Gold Cup (leaving the two stones inferior to Sprinter Sacre For Non Stop as “champion”). 2015 deprived us of another Gold Cup winner, 2016 is too disgusting to even contemplate and 2017 would have seen nine times two mile Grade One winner Un De Sceaux pick up a most deserved Champion Chase. Diverting just one worthy contender from a championship race is terrible but the pungency and endurance of the Ryanair’s foul odour has the capacity to spoil the freshest of fruits.
Simply put, the race is an abomination. If it is contested by championship horses then those horses should be running in the championship races. If it is contested by lesser horses then it has no right to its status. In either case, the race serves no constructive purpose.
That said, I am open to being persuaded otherwise…
Some people would have you believe that it was wall to wall Championship Races. It wasn’t.
There was a four mile chase for juveniles at one stage, a United Hunts race, the Supreme was ran in two divisions and didn’t there used to be the odd seller during the meeting? I think some novelty and lesser races might add to the charm like the farmers, charity and p2p bumper races they have at Punchestown. That said, where might they fit on an already dense and crowded programme?I’d bet good money on The Kim Muir getting the chop, as much as I love that race.
The race is one of the few embodiments of tradition left on the card. Would it only be the stuffy old boys who would fight for its retention or might it have wider support?I’ll keep with your races BH but move the order around a bit
Presumably you can only get the Friday off?Agree with TTC
I would lose the Cross Country, Dawn Run, Novice Handicap Chase and one of the Ryanair, Mares Hurdle or the NH Chase. I realise the last has a lot of tradition but I am personally not much of a fan of marathon chases (especially with amateur riders) and this year’s renewal was not pretty.
The Cross Country isn’t hurting anybody and it’s reliable for attracting French and Irish raiders. Plus the novelty might attract newcomers. I’d be in the “if you don’t like it, don’t watch it” camp here. Dawn Run has to go. The Novice Handicap probably helps to keep the WFA novices safer since we’re in the age of everybody having to have a runner at the festival. Ryanair and Mares Hurdle have to go. Not convinced about the National Hunt Chase – should probably revert to its old format of very slow horses safely plodding along in their own time.There is a big difference between 2 miles and 3m2f so why not have a race in between for horses who have a 2 1/2 mile optimum.
There is a difference between sixteen and twenty-six furlongs but two mile five is too close to both for comfort. As mentioned above, I don’t believe that five furlongs is a huge factor among the absolute best horses. If a top class horse doesn’t have the speed for two miles, it will probably stay three and a quarter. If a top class horse doesn’t stay three mile two then it should be able to cruise comfortably enough for the two. One Man didn’t stay the Gold Cup trip but it turned out he had the pace for two miles. Desert Orchid and Kauto Star were probably at their limits at the Gold Cup trip but class and courage carried them across the line – although both were also capable of winning Champion Chases. Any horse who can’t compete in either a Champion Chase or a Gold Cup is a slow horse who doesn’t stay and not exactly championship material. If the Ryanair was a consolation contest for this type of horse and had Grade Two status then that might be fair. But instead, it is promoted as an alternative championship despite being absolutely nothing of the sort.I agree with your agreement Yeats
Apparently, the 1963 Festival ended with the Mildmay of Fleet which leads me to question how traditional tradition really is. Watching old Supreme Novices’ on reminded me that the “Cheltenham Roar” is a fairly recent phenomenon. Something which does endure is the widespread belief that the contemporary format isn’t quite right…
The Observer; Mar 6, 1960
Cheltenham Promises to be Better than Ever
by John HislopThe Observer; Mar 13, 1960
There’s Still Room for Improvement
by John HislopPresumably you can only get the Friday off?
I can get the week off, have done for years
and if not then I can finish the day with plenty of time to get back for the 1st race
Maybe my programme was over the top but I do think the Friday card should be stronger than it currently is. Maybe add the Ryanair of if they don’t want a chase before the GC then make the Ryanair the big Thursday race and add the Stayers to the FridayBlackbeard to conquer the World
I think the Tuesday card drags a bit. It starts really strongly with the Supreme, Arkle, Ultima and Champion Hurdle. After that, the Mares race, Novices Handicap Chase and the NH Chase is a big anti-climax. I always take the last three days on leave but I am happy to work on the Tuesday. Not taking leave for just four races!
Terrific stuff BH. Knowing it will not change, does not make it right.
“The Mare is getting up, Jonjo O’Neill punches the air, Dawn run has won the Rynair the year after winning the Crusha Milkshake Mares Hurdle by 59 lengths”.
BUY THE SUN
The running order for the two day meeting in 1920:
Wed Mar 10th
Stayers Selling Hurdle 3M 200 (sovs to the winner)
Amateur Riders Hcp Ch 2M 200
N H Chase 4M 1000
Gloucestershire Hdle 2M 500
Grand Annual Hcp Ch 2M 500
Cotswold NH Flat Race 2M 200Thur Mar 11th
Swindon Selling Ch 2M 200
Cleeve Selling Hdle 2M 200
N H Juvenile Chase 3 1/2M 1000
N H Hcp CH 3M 500
Foxhunters Ch 4M 125
County Hcp Hdle 2M 1000So County Hurdle as the last race does have some basis as a tradition.
N H Juvenile Chase 3 1/2M 1000
A novel race, by today’s standards anyway
Were ‘juvenile’ races back then restricted to 3yo-turned-4yo on January 1st and if so was there a programme of 3yo chases before January?
A gruelling, if valuable test for a 4yo barely out of short trousers
Drone,
I have a 1913 racing annual with all that years results, and that shows the Juvenile Chase at the same meeting as being over 2 miles and for newly turned 4-y-olds. In effect, the Triumph Hurdle, but over fences.In that annual, I’ve never found any other chase restricted to 4-y-olds. The ones in the Cheltenham race that had run over fences, had done so against older horses in conditions events. Some had experience over hurdles and were making their chase debut at Cheltenham.
The 3 1/2M trip in 1920 is what is shown in the newspaper archive I’ve looked at, but I’ve no idea if that’s 100% reliable, although equally I’ve no reason to doubt the info. The distance is shown the same in the results list the following day. There were only seven runners.
Before I give my modified three day line up, I’d like to see which Ryanair winner would have been Champion Chase or Gold Cup winner in the year they won the Ryanair.
Because if you think Imperial Commander would have beaten Kauto Star in 2009, or that Cue Card would have beaten the MEGABEAST in 2013, or that Vautour wouldn’t have run out of puff (having been chinned on the line in the King George) in 2017, then you are quite clearly on drugs.
Twitter=@PGHenn
So don't run, just like the others always do
Don’t like the mares races and am disappointed that the Stayers Hurdle has become second fiddle to the Ryanair. The latter got all the buildup and parade on ITV, while the Stayers cut straight to the runners at the start despite it being Thursdays “championship” race.
Quite frankly I think they should end with the Bumper on the Friday as moving the Grand Annual to the second last race on the card has literally changed nothing as it’s still the “last chance stakes” for the professionals so they’re not going any slower, which was the entire point!
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