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I come from a long line of people who bought sold, trained and broke in horses. The one thing that was always preached was that you didnt get up on any horse without a whip. Even the smallest pony. It was considered to be a device for safety.
I don’t believe I have ever argued against carrying a whip. I suspect most people who don’t want to see horses hit would take a similar view.
Blake is a small part of the media circus. Hardly likely to upset his chums at the expense of earning his living is he?
As regards the whip hurting have you spoken to a horse recently? The only actual fact is that if you don’t hit them there is no pain at all. It is the pro-whip brigade not accepting the obvious that leads to this debate going round in circles.
I don’t understand your first point. Francome is seen as royalty in racing, I’d imagine that by coming out as strongly as he did against Francome flies in the face of what you are trying to suggest?
Your second point is just awful. If you think a comparitively tiny weak man balancing precariously on top of a 500kg adrenaline fuelled semi-wild animal can be hurt by a air filled foam cushioned stick, you are on the wrong side of the fluffy bunny line of reality. Even the RSPCA acknowledge that isn’t a welfare issue, so anyone that disputes that is just being pig headed.
Well said Inside , Stilvi just cant and wont listen
I fell sorry for him really ..he lives in a bubble of delusion
But rest assured he wont ever get his way , the whip will be around racing worldwide for ever …it has a less than 1 per cent chance of being banned here ,,,but still I guess he will grasp at any straw
As for talking to horses and asking them if it hurts , pretty much explains his viewpoint in a
nutshell
Blake is a small part of the media circus. Hardly likely to upset his chums at the expense of earning his living is he?
As regards the whip hurting have you spoken to a horse recently? The only actual fact is that if you don’t hit them there is no pain at all. It is the pro-whip brigade not accepting the obvious that leads to this debate going round in circles.
I don’t understand your first point. Francome is seen as royalty in racing, I’d imagine that by coming out as strongly as he did against Francome flies in the face of what you are trying to suggest?
Your second point is just awful. If you think a comparitively tiny weak man balancing precariously on top of a 500kg adrenaline fuelled semi-wild animal can be hurt by a air filled foam cushioned stick, you are on the wrong side of the fluffy bunny line of reality. Even the RSPCA acknowledge that isn’t a welfare issue, so anyone that disputes that is just being pig headed.
Francome, I suspect, does not rely on an income from the sport so basically it wouldn’t matter a jot to him if he upset people within the sport. It is a different story entirely for Blake.
As regards your second offering you appear to be struggling to grasp the difference between an assumption and a fact.
I don’t particularly relish the idea of you, I and Richard Rellis rehashing it for the nth time in
the Retirement Home for TRF Gentlefolk
(patron Peter Scudamore)
As Comic Book Guy might say:-
"Smallest Retirement Home Evverrr"
Thanks for the good crack. Time for me to move on. Be lucky.
Does the bridle and bit hurt a horse’s mouth when it’s pulling hard?
If so, is this pain a justifiable part of the sport; or should all horses be ‘given their head’ and allowed to gallop as they wish?Perhaps we could address one issue at a time rather than throw another diversion into the pot?
More an attempt to put this infatuation many seem to have with the whip into a context with other tack used to exert will on a horse. To dismiss discussion on the ‘pain’ the Bit might cause under certain circumstances as "another diversion", as though it’s wholly irrelevant just weakens the anti-whip argument. Pain is pain, is it not wherever it’s inflicted
Does a soft calf leather-covered heel deftly dug into the ribcage or soft underbelly cause ‘pain’
Infact I’d confidently predict that horses will be raced starkers like greyhounds (and without those cruel number cloths of course) sooner rather than later. I’d put the spread at 40-43 years and in 100 years time people will look back with incredulity that other very small people were ever let near a horse
Anyway Cormack seems to have taken flight in order to promote the Cheltenham Whip Festival (whip-ban spread 4-4.666) which means that either I, and others, are talking through our strangulating bits, or he’s lost the argument, or, praise be to Pegasus, he’s had enough of it all
More an attempt to put this infatuation many seem to have with the whip into a context with other tack used to exert will on a horse. To dismiss discussion on the ‘pain’ the Bit might cause under certain circumstances as "another diversion", as though it’s wholly irrelevant just weakens the anti-whip argument. Pain is pain, is it not wherever it’s inflicted
Does a soft calf leather-covered heel deftly dug into the ribcage or soft underbelly cause ‘pain’
Ah, but the key word here is
whip
isn’t it?
We live in an age where the jolly old general public feels the need to be permanently offended or outraged by something –
anything
in fact – so what a delicious target the whip is. Quite frankly, the BHA could force every horse to wear a cilice under their numbercloth and it wouldn’t raise anywhere near the objections that the out-and-proud use of the persuader does.
Does it cause injury or intense pain to horses? No.
Is it cruel? No.
Is it routinely abused? No.
Will it ultimately be banned? Of course it will.The whip debate has nothing to do with the physical presence of the whip itself, it exists primarily in the perception of cruelty by the wider public. Non-racing people know or care little about the constitution of a horse or the lightweight construction of the whip. What they see is
people hitting horses
. It’s as simple as that (and sadly so is the public).
Eddie complains about my ‘pointless prediction’ that the whip will be banned (nb aren’t all predictions by definition ‘pointless’?) yet it is another one of these – that racing will at some point disappear from terrestrial television – that might yet save the whip, out of sight being generally out of mind for the public. Even so, I wouldn’t bet on it.
Mike
Here is the slippery slope that this whip debate is putting racing on. Anti-whip views go hand-in-hand with anti-racing views. If you are a fan of racing, bear that in mind when spouting off about the whip.
Cormack will be voting for the Greens in May!
Contained within the animal rights section of a white paper entitled Policies for a Sustainable Future, which will form the basis of its general election manifesto, the party says it would “end the exploitation of animals in horseracing, greyhound racing and all situations where animals are commercially raced”, adding, “there would be an immediate ban on the use of the whip”.
The policy also states: “There would be . . . full publication of injury and death statistics. These statistics would be used as evidence to close dangerous tracks and ban trainers with poor records . . . A high level of compulsory levy would be imposed on all betting, to be used solely for welfare improvements.”
Folks please lets keep it real
The greens believe being a member of Al Q or ISIS ..is ok , not illegal …… also every citizen should have 72 pounds handout ….and loads more loonie ideas ….the electorate will just ignore
Chances of being elected or having any influence ,,1 million to one…make that 20 million to one
so FFS …lets not even imagine that its any way feasable
Scaremongering …and the BHA response was typical …lets see what happens at Cheltenham ….this will be pivotal
Sorry Corm and Stilvi ….this is not going your way ….
imo of course
"A high level of compulsory levy would be imposed on all betting, to be used solely for welfare improvements.”
Translation: The Green Party will ban horseracing.*
Mike
*As soon as they are elected with an overall majority. They are currently seen as realistic challengers in just 3 seats: Caroline Lucas is 8/13 to retain Brighton Pavilions, whilst they are 7/2 to gain Norwich South and 5/1 Bristol West.
Ha – I don’t ‘spout off’, I publish my views.
And I’m not anti-racing. Quite the contrary. I AM anti-whip though.
And as long as Sir Alex is still around the SNP camp the party I vote for will be staunchly PRO racing.
And as long as Sir Alex is still around the SNP camp the party I vote for will be staunchly PRO racing.
That’s disappointing, as having spent some time in E*gl*nd one might have been forgiven for thinking that Ferguson’s world view would have extended a little further south than the north bank of the Tweed
For what it’s worth here is my two pennorth worth.
Firstly, regardless of what I have written below I have no firm view either way with regard to a whip being used.
It seems the common consensus is that there are at present two reasons for carrying a whip, one for making a horse produce maximum effort and the other for safety reasons.
The first reason for me is the sole reason for carrying a whip. The safety issue in my opinion is a red herring. I fail to see the whip being of any significant use with regards to safety. In my opinion there are more reasons for safety to be compromised using the whip than the other way round. In other words by using a whip you are increasing the likelihood of a dangerous situation occurring by resorting to whipping a horse.
I do agree however that using a whip can result in a horse producing a maximum effort that it may not do so without that use, which in essence seems to be the predominant factor in finding out the best horse in any particular race.
So to summarise my opinion, the whip is used to try and produce the maximum performance from a horse. In using the whip, safety is compromised more so than if not used at all.
The whip itself. Apparently the whip used now is of such a design that it causes little or no pain. If it doesn’t hurt at all then there should be no reason why the jockey shouldn’t be allowed to use it as often as he or she wishes. The ride Davy Condon got banned for should therefore be acceptable as the horse would not have been physically harmed yet one of the whip’s greatest advocates Ricky stated he was
disturbed by it. Why?If it doesn’t hurt what is the point of using it. Are you saying that as the horse is a flight creature then you are actually scaring it in to going faster.If so is this mental stimulus potentially more damaging to the public perception than actual physical harm?
This leads us on to the real problem, perception. I think this is all the BHA are really bothered about. I don’t think they have any inention of ever amending any result due to the perceived overuse of the whip as they don’t actually believe there is a problem in the first place. I believe they would still be following the whip guidelines of the majority of the world’s racing powers were it not for the promotion of potential horse cruelty from various organisations. As long as they can be perceived to be dealing with whip "offenders" appropriately then they can stave off any organisations that criticise them for being disinterested in the welfare of the horse.
Betlarge has made some good points in his posts none more so in my opinion than the fact that the sooner racing disappears off of terrestial TV the less publicity the whip issue will get.
It does seem to boil down to whether or not you are prepared to see a less intelligent animal be manipulated by a dominant species for their entertainment with the potential for that less intelligent animal to be subjected to discomfort (perceived or otherwise) on a minor or major scale dependent on your point of view.
Looking at it in the wider picture of the world today I would have to say the whip issue is not particularly high on my list of major worries, though that’s not to say it’s not on someone else’s.
It’s not as if it’s the Leicestershire or Tamworth Under 9’s football is it?
I disagree with most of your post aaronizneez.
You state safety reasons for carrying a whip are a red herring and that a dangerous situation is more likely to occur due to whip use. Based on what? Are you an expert on the subject? I’m not, I prefer to listen to experts who know a lot more about the subject than me.
Maybe Ricky didn’t think Condon’s ride looked good unlike Aspell’s, Coleman’s, Kelly’s, Kirby’s, Havlins and hundreds more that have received undeserved bans.
As Pinza pointed out in his excellent post "Misuse is so rare as to be quite obvious, visually; and is easy to tackle, provided the guidelines are discretionary".
Doubt many would be up in arms if Condon received a few days ban, not because he hurt the horse but because it didn’t look good.
You state like betlarge that the sooner racing disappears from terrestrial tv the better. Most unlikely that racing’s crown jewels will disappear from terrestrial tv in the near future.
As for the BHA, not quite sure what they’re up to but have absolutely no confidence in them, it could be some of the personnel there are the problem and keep bringing bad publicity to the sport.
Doubt very much recent unjust bans to Kelly, Havlin, Coleman & Co will have any impact at all on how organisations such as Animal Aid view racing.Can’t help thinking a lot of these anti-whippers are too parochial in only being concerned about what occurs in Britain.
Ah, but the key word here is whip isn’t it?
We live in an age where the jolly old general public feels the need to be permanently offended or outraged by something – anything in fact – so what a delicious target the whip is. Quite frankly, the BHA could force every horse to wear a cilice under their numbercloth and it wouldn’t raise anywhere near the objections that the out-and-proud use of the persuader does
I recall Sean Boyce (one of the more balanced correspondents to have contributed to the TRF whip saga) saying that if the Whip were called the Crop – which is essentially what the Rules whip is nowadays – then much of the ill-considered and uneducated furore over its use would cease
It’s okay to
cull
seal pups but not okay to
kill
them
I think, Betlarge, you were indisposed during those halcyon days in 2011 when every other thread seemed to feature whip ramblings; so here, for you and others who missed it all, are some of them
Best read whist wearing a Shetland Pony-hair cilice. Just between you and me I would also recommend a trussing of leather and metal tack, and a home appointment with Miss Croplash
https://theracingforum.co.uk/horse-r … =2&t=88370
https://theracingforum.co.uk/horse-r … =2&t=88369
https://theracingforum.co.uk/horse-r … =2&t=86343
https://theracingforum.co.uk/horse-r … =2&t=88566
https://theracingforum.co.uk/horse-r … =2&t=88591
https://theracingforum.co.uk/horse-r … =2&t=88455
https://theracingforum.co.uk/horse-r … =2&t=88449
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