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Ha, I thought I was crystal clear.
1. I want to see the whip abolished other than carrying for safety.
2. Riders who win while breaking the whip rule should be dq’d.Clearer?
Ha, I thought I was crystal clear.
1. I want to see the whip abolished other than carrying for safety.
2. Riders who win while breaking the whip rule should be dq’d.Clearer?
QuoteCorm , all joking apart , and with maximum respect for your view , I ask the following questions
Do you really think there is any chance of that happening within the next 2 years
if not , do you really thinkj there is any chance of that happening within the next 5 years
if not , do you really think it will happen at all ??
No, no and yes.
I’d put the spread at 20-23 years. In fifty years time I predict people will look back with incredulity at how long it took to actually ban it.
Fair enough Corm …you could well be right , but in the short term I cannot see it happening
50 years from now , it wont bother me much
I’m afraid I don’t make the decisions regarding riding arrangements for Outlaw Tom Drone. I’ve never proposed the idea, which I suppose as part of the ownership club I’m entitled to, but I know our assistant trainer is very much ‘pro’ so I think I’d be very much on a loser.
As moral dilemmas go this strikes me as one of the easier cases to conquer
a) move your horses to a like-minded trainer – it’s time Mark Prescott ran his velvet gloves over a chaser
or
b) end your involvement
Given that you say you have little or no input (why not for goodness sake, you pay your share don’t you?) I’d suggest option b) would be the likeliest way to cure the turmoil and insomnia caused by this continuous wrestling with your conscience that I’m sure plagues you
Incidentally was your 20-23 year spread on a whip-ban a piss-take? If you really believe that may I suggest you cease your campaign now: I don’t particularly relish the idea of you, I and Richard Rellis rehashing it for the nth time in the Retirement Home for TRF Gentlefolk (patron Peter Scudamore)
Personally, I’d say 20 years would be a conservative sell on there being no horseracing at all, at least not as we know it Cormack
Interesting views from John Francome on ATR’s "Get In" on Friday.
He said use of the whip other than for corrective safety should be made an offence immediately,
arguing that if the whip was invented today and the BHA said they were considering introducing it so riders can beat their horses, the public would be appalled
.
He went on to say that if you banned its use, in two weeks time people would have forgotten we ever used them to hit horses and wonder what all the fuss was about.
I have a sneaking feeling Francome may be correct on this. (Paricularly the bit in bold.)
The whip will be banned eventually, it’s an absolute given in this progressive day and age. It’s just a matter of how long.
Let’s be honest, if someone had said twenty years ago that smoking in your local would be illegal…
Mike
I take your point Mike but Alastair is quite spry on the Sunday Forum on ATR and his love of jumps racing always shines through which is especially needed on National day.
Interesting views from John Francome on ATR’s "Get In" on Friday.
He said use of the whip other than for corrective safety should be made an offence immediately,
arguing that if the whip was invented today and the BHA said they were considering introducing it so riders can beat their horses, the public would be appalled
.
He went on to say that if you banned its use, in two weeks time people would have forgotten we ever used them to hit horses and wonder what all the fuss was about.
I have a sneaking feeling Francome may be correct on this. (Paricularly the bit in bold.)
The whip will be banned eventually, it’s an absolute given in this progressive day and age. It’s just a matter of how long.
Let’s be honest, if someone had said twenty years ago that smoking in your local would be illegal…
Mike
Don’t think Francome’s comments are that particularly edge cutting, which causes more illness or injury, smoking or a foam stick on horses? You can still smoke.
Are you with cormack, betlarge, that you’re quite content with horses jumping fences and open ditches, something that causes death and injury but are against a foam stick being used to encourage them, something that causes little injury if any to them?
Horses are hit with a whip every few minutes. If they suffered injury on that regularity the game would already have ended. They can also have their say if they don’t want to jump a fence or hurdle. The two things are not really comparable.
Smoking is a human choice. Do you really think given the choice a horse would want to be hit with anything?
Don’t think Francome’s comments are that particularly edge cutting, which causes more illness or injury, smoking or a foam stick on horses? You can still smoke.
Are you with cormack, betlarge, that you’re quite content with horses jumping fences and open ditches, something that causes death and injury but are against a foam stick being used to encourage them, something that causes little injury if any to them?
I think you misunderstand. I’m not trying to draw some moral equivalency between the whip and smoking, it was merely an example of how, in nominally progressive societies, things that seemed unthinkable five, ten, twenty, whatever years ago are now regarded as absolutely normal. There are many other examples of this.
As for the whip, I’m absolutely fine with it. I would certainly not ban it myself but my opinion is irrelevant. At some point in the future it
will
be banned, absolutely no question. And, as Francome says, after a few weeks nobody will mention it any more of it (a bit like smoking in pubs really).
Mike
I am laughing at the amount of sheer bollocks being offered on this thread
so here’s some more
Lets say Betlarge is right with his pub smoking comparison , its certainly possible and maybe even feasable …but for the other countries like Ireland , France Germany , Usa , Hon Kong , etc , do we really think they will follow our lead
No way whatsoever , as it is we are the laughing stock of the world with our whip rules …no single country is bothering like we do , and I cannot forsee any doing so
So it will be a whipless British racing , which will just fade away , the rest of the world will carry on as before
Enjoy it Stilvi and co . you will be most welcome to it
imo
It’s amazing the number of people with crystal balls, nearly all of them anti-whip.
betlarge says it was unthinkable smoking would be banned in pubs but highly likely whip use will be banned sometime in the future, when in 20? 50? 100 years? A pointless prediction.
Like Drone, I nearly fell off my chair laughing at cormack’s 20/23 year spread.
As ricky points out, none of these fortune tellers ever make any reference to other racing countries or the horse friendly cushioned whips we use here.
Will any of them be around to tell you "I told you so"? Must be very doubtful.
I don’t understand why this debate always ends up going into such depth. Surely the most important question here is "does the whip hurt horses?" Even the RSPCA admit that it doesn’t, so if horsemen think that it is necessary for propulsion and safety, why any sensible and informed person would have a problem with it is beyond me.
I couldn’t believe what I was hearing coming out on Francome on ATR last week. He is completely out of touch with reality, not just on the whip either. I enjoyed Robbie McNamara and Kevin Blake taking his silly opinion to pieces on the Final Furlong Podcast. It starts at about 42 minutes. https://m.soundcloud.com/emmet-kennedy/ … ers-tweets
Blake is a small part of the media circus. Hardly likely to upset his chums at the expense of earning his living is he?
As regards the whip hurting have you spoken to a horse recently? The only actual fact is that if you don’t hit them there is no pain at all. It is the pro-whip brigade not accepting the obvious that leads to this debate going round in circles.
Does the bridle and bit hurt a horse’s mouth when it’s pulling hard?
If so, is this pain a justifiable part of the sport; or should all horses be ‘given their head’ and allowed to gallop as they wish?
I haven’t seen nor want to see John Francome’s recent anti-whip diatribe; but he has, I think, a poor memory, or to perhaps allow him some credit, changed his mind; as I could swear he once said on air that the bridle/bit was the implement that caused the horse genuine pain, with the whip being, relatively speaking, of little significance
The problem is of course that a) the word ‘whip’ has an unpleasant connotation and b) it’s use is easy for the lazy to see; and therefore from which equally easy to draw lazy conclusions
Riding/working horses, be they racers or whatever, is essentially about the rider/worker asserting his or her will over that of the horse, with that will being assisted by tough tack and implements
Cruel
Stilvi, its difficult to tell quite what sensation a horse feels but its relatively quite easy to tell if you are hurting a horse…in the same way that its easy to tell whether you are hurting your dog. I one thing I would say if that if there is one situation where a horse wont particularly mind its when they are galloping around a racecourse with all that adrenalin rush. You may notice how some of them can break a leg and still try and keep going.
At the end of the day, start hurting your horse on a regular basis and your relationship with him/her with break down pretty quickly.
I come from a long line of people who bought sold, trained and broke in horses. The one thing that was always preached was that you didnt get up on any horse without a whip. Even the smallest pony. It was considered to be a device for safety.
SHL
Does the bridle and bit hurt a horse’s mouth when it’s pulling hard?
If so, is this pain a justifiable part of the sport; or should all horses be ‘given their head’ and allowed to gallop as they wish?
Perhaps we could address one issue at a time rather than throw another diversion into the pot?
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