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Lets say the BHA keep pandering to the vocal minority and the whip is banned altogether…does anyone else think that will be the end of it and those same minority individuals will simply toddle off and find something else to do?
No the next thing will be that forcing horses to race in any capacity for ‘sport’ is cruel and then we will be on that path and the BHA will quote chapter and verse public perception and try to appease those individuals….who by now know full well that if they complain long and loud enough the BHA will continue to give ground until the ultimate goal of a horse racing ban is achieved and then we will have 30k+ racehorses without any purpose for being on this earth.
A rosy future indeed.
“Hoiles suggestion of representatives from the sport visiting schools and demonstrating how soft these modern cushioned whips are, would seem a workable and beneficial one”
Not sure about that
You can visualise the adverts in 20 years time“Are you aged between 30 and 40 years old?”
“Were you at school and subject to being hit by the pro cushion?”
“you can claim thousands of pounds”
“No win, no fee”Best thing to do is let the perverts try them out…
Blackbeard to conquer the World
Stupid thing about going to school with the whip. Some parents might even like beating the **** out of their own children. “It doesn’t hurt after all. Richard the Brain Hoiles told us to do so….”
In response to Cork All Star re the opinions of newcomers to racing.
Quite simple really.
If new people aren’t attracted to the sport then the Levy etc. will be diminished as betting will be adversely affected , racecourse attendances will dip still further , and the death of the sport will occur.CAS, no, I don’t believe there is a welfare issue with the whip (I do think pro-whip folks do the case no good in calling it the Pro-Cush; the public ain’t daft, they will treat the euphemism the way they treat politicians who say that, for example, Liz Truss and her Kwarteng budget was a ‘sub optimal event’.
If you’re not calling it a whip, your are hiding something (as far as the public is concerned – not you personally).
But, I’ve no argument with current use and just wish the BHA would make a decision rather than constantly messing with it.
Coggy, do you think newcomers will be attracted to the sport because jockeys are allowed one fewer stroke with the “whip” than before? Or if it was abolished? Where is the solid evidence the whip is keeping a potentially new audience away?
I am reminded of the argument that the smoking ban would mean people who did not go to pubs would all of a sudden start going. It didn’t happen. They did not go to pubs because they did not like them.
Likewise I believe people who do not go racing are just not interested. The BHA spent £1.5 million on an advert to attract new people to the sport. It failed. Why are we chasing an audience which is not interested?
Enough new people will be attracted to go racing without naff adverts and tampering with the rules. There are still plenty of young people at midweek meetings, especially in the summer.
But the death of the sport will occur if the pro-cush is banned, regular punters stop betting on it and affordability checks make it a chore getting a bet on.
In order to educate anyone, they first need to want to be educated.
That sort of thing getting on onto state school curricula takes racing bubble insular fantasy to a new level.
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It's the "Millwall FC" of Point broadcasts: "No One Likes Us - We Don't Care"The whip removal won’t be enough to satisfy those that think the sport is cruel. Jump racing would have to be removed too. Feedback from relatives and friends I’ve received over the years say hitting the horses and watching them fall is horrible and they can’t watch.
Reducing the number of whip hit rules won’t change the minds of those who can’t watch.
Ms Cider had only been flat racing to get pissed and dress up nice before she met me. But I’ve just asked her what her perception of the whip is and she said “you’ve told me it doesn’t hurt and it’s only used to encourage them”
So education is clearly key.
However she’s also said that her niece thinks it’s cruel because the horses get hurt and die in the grand national. A sentiment shared by other members of the family apparently.
My own sister holds similar views. But there are always going to be a section of society who hold these views.
Conversely there are enough bus fulls of students who are happy to be fetched into Dundalk/Cheltenham/Chester to get absolutely steaming who frankly just want to have a good time. And if we can provide these groups of people with a tipster or guide when they get there to help them understand the basics of racing we also have plenty of opportunities to educate the young uns and maybe make them the next generation of people who want to be there to watch the racing as well as have a few bevvies and enjoy the sport.
Because at the minute all we’re doing is digging a shallow grave for racing and the wider world by continually pandering to those on the extreme left of society.
Well said, Kevin Blake:
https://www.attheraces.com/blogs/kevin-blake/21-february-2023/racing-standing-proud
“But, I’ve no argument with current use and just wish the BHA would make a decision rather than constantly messing with it.”
Apologies to Steeplechasing – I somehow managed to miss your reply. But I have read it now and similar comments you made over at The Guardian.
I fully agree that the BHA needs to make a stand. If it believes these new rules are right, it should defend them. No going soft and having another review in a few years time.
I personally believe some of the penalties are severe – but the jockeys did agree to them. If they get a ban they will have to take it on the chin.
My problem is how the BHA claims the rules were changed on the back of research and feedback but will not publish the results. I do not know if it is accurate but I have heard that the “research” is an interview with 10 “Generation Z” and “Millennials” who say they think horse racing is cruel. If so, that is a shocking basis for a sport and major industry to make a change to its rules.
My view on this – and all things pertaining to the racing and betting industries – is that it’s vital to be mindful of the power dynamics here.
Wider public opinion influences governments and governments can legislate your activity – whatever it is – out of existence.
The notion you can resist this by simply “standing up to them” is puerile.
That said, both the racing and betting industries could argue their cases over whips, freedom to bet, whatever, better than they do.
The worry is the BHA is now populated with careerists who have no deep understanding of, let alone love of, racing and betting.
The net result is the mess we see nowadays – posters with whips airbrushed out for race meetings where it’s fine to get drunk but betting just isn’t talked about (despite the fact it funds the sport).
There has to be an element of appeasement of wider public opinion – they have the power to ban us, we don’t have the power to ban them – but the current apparent cave in is very worrying indeed.
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It's the "Millwall FC" of Point broadcasts: "No One Likes Us - We Don't Care"Fair points ID. I recognise public opinion has the power to ban the sport. As I have pointed out on this forum, greyhound racing is about to be banned in Wales. It is also as good as banned in Scotland. I believe it will be banned in England some time in the not too distant future.
When I say “stand up to them”, I mean I would like to see at least one senior leader in the BHA strongly put the case for racing. All they seem to do is act defensively and apologetically. Do they have any confidence in the sport they are meant to be promoting?
If the sport is going to be banned or radically changed one day, why not at least go down putting up a fight?
Too many people in the racing media are of the same mindset as the BHA. Nick Luck was even involved in drafting the new whip rules. But what does he care? No doubt he was being paid a pretty penny to front the racing from Saudi Arabia yesterday, while in the next breath appearing in videos saying we have to do more to promote diversity in racing!
“When I say “stand up to them”, I mean I would like to see at least one senior leader in the BHA strongly put the case for racing. All they seem to do is act defensively and apologetically. Do they have any confidence in the sport they are meant to be promoting?”
This, I DO absolutely agree with.
Has anyone on this forum got the confidence in Julie Harrington ever to do this?
Does she even possess the knowledge, intelligence and articulacy to do so?
The BHA keeps recruiting career executives with Westminster networking contacts at the expense of intelligence and domain expertise.
Where exactly have Harrington’s networking contacts got racing so far?
And if the BHA still has confidence in their CEO, why the need for this Chairman who seems to have named himself after an Arc winner or for Peter Savill to re-emerge with ideas?
Let’s be fair, the BHA are (with a few noble exceptions among their Handicappers) full of idiots who don’t even understand the game, so no surprise they appoint idiots who know nothing about the game to preside over them.
But you won’t even hear the best of RacingTV racing media – Nick Luck and Lydia Hislop – say this outright because it’s more than their job’s worth.
And as CAS says Luck (and you can add Hislop who sits on the Pattern Committee) are more or less involved with the BHA.
Greg Wood will sail closer to the wind (from his independent Guardian platform) than most.
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It's the "Millwall FC" of Point broadcasts: "No One Likes Us - We Don't Care"The below is from the front page of the Life taken from a scrapbook – not certain of the year as I’d stupidly cut off the top with the date on though it’s definitely second half of the 1980’s. It’s in a way racing’s first extra big step in voluntary yielding as I don’t recall there being too much pressure from the outside at the time.
“Jockeys will be suspended rather than fined for whip offences from March 24 under tough new Jockey Cub rules announced yesterday.
The Jockey Club stewards are so determined to stop improper use of the whip that top jockey’s including Pat Eddery,will have to change the style of riding which won them many races
last year.Lord Vestey, chairman of Jockey Club Disciplinary Committee, revealed that Lester Piggott’s high pressure ride on The Minstrel, who was hit 20 times to win the 1977 Derby, would have contravened the new rules and earned Piggott a suspension.
He added that Eddery’s much copied technique of hitting a horse continuously in ‘rat-tat-tar‘ action close home in a desperate finish will no longer be allowed.”
It actually continues for a few more paragraphs with Vestey quoted as saying “ Savagery cannot be tolerated on humanitarian grounds”. – talk about hanging out your own dirty washing, the silly old fool!
Public perception is important. It may have little to no basis in fact but if you look at the way some people lap up the complete rubbish spouted about other subjects then you quickly realise that facts don’t necessarily matter. If the sport’s own guardians won’t make the case for their own rules then it’s an argument you’re going to struggle to win.
Fact is most people simply don’t care and if racing was banned tomorrow many would shrug their shoulders and simply go elsewhere for their day out. A much smaller amount at each end would either lament it or see it as a victory.
“When I say “stand up to them”, I mean I would like to see at least one senior leader in the BHA strongly put the case for racing. All they seem to do is act defensively and apologetically. Do they have any confidence in the sport they are meant to be promoting?”
If you mean mainly on the whip – to defend its use – you could have Stephen Fry or another masterly wordsmith as BHA chair, but no one can defend or educate over the whip, because every defence, every lesson, comes to a halt at the question: ‘Does it hurt?’ The BHA’s stance, in writing, is that the whip does not hurt horses. But their actions don’t match those words or there’d be no need to have swingeing penalties for incorrect use. If a whip doesn’t hurt, then it doesn’t hurt on the 20th stroke any more than it does on the first.
And there is evidence it does indeed hurt; below a quote from phys.org (link at foot of this post, along with a link to a long article from the National Library of medicine)
“A 2020 study showed that horses’ skin is just as sensitive as humans’ by comparing skin samples under the microscope and exploring any differences in their skin structure and nerve supply. It found the outer layer of horses’ skin is no thicker (or more protective) than in humans. So if whip strikes cause pain to humans, they are likely to hurt horses. When it comes to changing a horse’s behavior, whips are used in racing as a form of punishment (for its failure to perform), not encouragement (to realize its potential).”
So, how would a BHA exec get on answering questions in a live broadcast with an independent, non-sports reporter? Not well, not well at all.
I’ll return to an earlier point: I have asked in this forum, on twitter, on my blog, and in The Guardian yesterday – who in the sport would be disadvantaged by a total ban (for encouragement). I’m still waiting for a credible answer. Reflecting on that, how can we conclude otherwise than this is a recurring, highly damaging issue, which disadvantages EVERYONE in racing. If this were a problem faced by a major commercial concern, it would be banned in very short order, reason being it is an absolute no-brainer under objective assessment.
https://phys.org/news/2022-09-horseracing-industry-science.html
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC4494335/
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