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I thought the same about TIME FOR RUPERT back in the day,could have been a Gold Cup horse with a decent trainer.
Completely agree with the Wexford man but would also say that in a time of greater technology and understanding of diets, fitness etc the gap between the top trainers and the average trainers is wider than ever. The extra money the likes of Mullins / Elliott etc bring in will only widen the gap.
Interestingly heard recently the cost difference of NH training fees for a top trainer compared to a lesser known is actually relatively small compared to flat trainers.
If that’s the case I can see a lot of smaller trainers dying out.
I’m not entirely comfortable with the huge improvement shown, so would appreciate if gman could explain that gap in a little more detail for a n00b like myself.
Indeed, Time For Rupert was very unlucky to have landed with Paul Webber. We were saying the other week that Legatissimo must have been the greatest filly ever – amazing that any horse was able to win multiple G1s for David Wachman!
I suppose it’s everything. Sandra Hughes had good facilities, good feed and good quality horses but she didn’t have the training background and skill of her father, let alone Willie Mullins et al. I don’t want to be too harsh though – she was grieving for her dad and suddenly landed in a high pressure job. I suppose it shows that it does take a special kind of person. You can’t just walk into a yard (even a very good one filled with quality horses) and start banging out winners. It’s interesting to see just how wrong Sandra Hughes had Total Recall pegged – she was quoted as saying that the horse is totally dependent on going left-handed and wouldn’t stay a yard further than 2m 4f! Whoops.
Oh; Willie Mullins said that if she had kept Total Recall she would probably have trained him for the Irish National and won it, like she did with Thunder&Roses.
Some of it is probably lucky timing too. I bet if Potts hadn’t taken his horses away from Henry de Bromhead, it would have occurred to HdB to give the second season Sizing John a go over a bit further than 2 miles; and he might have wrought the 20lb improvement that Jessie H got out of the horse.
Similarly, if the Two Golf Widows had got impatient after One For Arthur’s first season, and whisked the horse off to another trainer who’d continued to work on his jumping and put the tongue tie on, they would have got the credit for the 27lb improvement the following season, and Lucinda Russell would have been considered a bit rubbish.
Of course mullins was going to give hughes some credit. He was hardly going to come out and say “Sandra is a terrible trainer who as a result, got this horse so well handicapped that all a genius like me had to do was train it properly”.
Of course he was going to praise her. trainers, owners and jockeys very rarely criticise each other in public.Quelled farce / not sure if you are digging me out but here’s just a Few examples:
Work riders- Willie for example regularly has the likes of Ruby, Paul Townend and Danny Mullins riding out for him. The level of knowledge and experience of these guys would give much greater insight in to how to train and place a horse for best result.
Facilities- Mullins has access to different gallops with different surfaces enabling him to be unaffected by weather but also to do more planning with regards to a horses favourable conditions other than guesswork based on racing and homework
Calibre- maybe more suggestive but working alongside better horses could eek out small improvement in horses. We’ve all seen horses idle or get lazy in front. If they are galloping with fellow top stars it could just give them that extra level of fitness and race-readiness
Science- I have less knowledge on this but from parts I have read the top yards place more emphasise on the data available to them to get the best out of a horse.Thanks gman. Not “digging you out”, whatever that means. Was just hoping you would elaborate for a thicko like myself :)
Indeed, Time For Rupert was very unlucky to have landed with Paul Webber. We were saying the other week that Legatissimo must have been the greatest filly ever – amazing that any horse was able to win multiple G1s for David Wachman!
I suppose it’s everything. Sandra Hughes had good facilities, good feed and good quality horses but she didn’t have the training background and skill of her father, let alone Willie Mullins et al. I don’t want to be too harsh though – she was grieving for her dad and suddenly landed in a high pressure job. I suppose it shows that it does take a special kind of person. You can’t just walk into a yard (even a very good one filled with quality horses) and start banging out winners. It’s interesting to see just how wrong Sandra Hughes had Total Recall pegged – she was quoted as saying that the horse is totally dependent on going left-handed and wouldn’t stay a yard further than 2m 4f! Whoops.
I tipped Rekindling as a likely outsider when he was running in the Criterium De St Cloud as a 2yo trained by David Wachman. The horse was stone last and then got transferred to Joey O’Brien. Of course he recently won the Melbourne Cup.
I also had a good bet on Winter on her second start at 2yo, she was heavily backed as if defeat was out of the question but was well beaten in third place. She turned out to be a wee bit better than that maiden defeat.
As someone once said “When David Wachman retired, I had a little party in my heart”
Thanks for the good crack. Time for me to move on. Be lucky.
I thought the same about TIME FOR RUPERT back in the day,could have been a Gold Cup horse with a decent trainer.
Highly unlikely, R&S. With the issues TFR picked up halfway through his novice year, a “decent trainer” wouldn’t have the time to look after TFR. He was on his way to the top before injury struck.
But I thank my lucky stars John Spearing trained a certain runner of the 1986 Gold Cup.
Value Is EverythingIn horse racing we have premier league trainers running their players alongside those from League 2 trainers. That’s all part of the fun. It’s nice that a Seemingly League 2 trainer can win the FA Cup now and again. But that also means it’s not so surprising a horse improves so much once moved.
I’m surprised an owner doesn’t move their horse to a lower league trainer, see its handicap mark come down, then move it back for a tilt at a good handicap.
I do think sometimes the improvement made is exaggerated because the lesser trainer has had something like a virilent virus that’s stopped it and others showing what he/she could’ve done with it. Once the horse is moved its health improves and so does its form. To a degree, suspect that’s what happened with Sandra Hughes and Rebecca Curtis. Donald McCain had a wonderful time and was a top 5 trainer until a bad virus struck the yard. Lost a lot of good/promising horses including The Last Samuri, Kruzlinin and Starchitect who’ve done well for other yards (probably because they were healthier). McCain had a couple of poor seasons; now he seems over it and back in the winners. Hopefully will get some good horses again.
Value Is EverythingYou should also take into account what a change of scenery can do for a horse that maybe is getting jaded with a particular routine that doesn’t stimulate them like it used to, then they move to different surroundings and maybe a change in diet or a different training routine etc – as they say a change is as good as a rest.
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