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I ask this question as it seems to me to be ambigious.
For example you hear recently that Varian has improved Cumani’s string of horses.
But I wonder what separates one trainer from another and makes him “great” What is the exact skill level here?
Surely all they really do is gallop them. They do half-speeds, full out gallops, trots, they feed them pretty much the same stuff, they finish the morning work then they go back to their stables. Repeat the same dose the next day.
I realize there is some variance in approach, for example some trainers will campaign their horses much more aggressively than others, but I’ve always felt that being a racehorse trainer is one of those jobs that have a certain amount of mystery and intrigue that isn’t really warranted, that you are pretty much doing the same thing.
Or have I completely got the wrong end of the stick?
Some horses can get a little stale and need a change of scenery and routine, just like people really. So you can get a horse moving from trainer A to Trainer B and getting a new lease of life, and another moving in the opposite direction and improving too.
A smaller operation with more individual attention and fussing over may suit some horses too, although this obviously doesn’t apply in the case of Gosden and Varian.
I reckon you are just trying to wind us up, but that’s what makes people post on here sometimes. So I hope thare are quite a few responses. What does a Trainer do? A few things off the top of my head, all of which trainers have the opportunity to be rubbish or brilliant at, and all stages in between. Which is why some have a more successful career than others.
Understand the horse, and what the horse needs to be the best it can. Notice every detail about every horse every day.
Teach the horse how to run. Match horses with work riders. Choose the detail of the work each horse needs.
Teach the horse all the mental stuff: like how and when to be competitive, when to relax, when to fight, how to respond to a riders messages, etc.
Run a business, especially accumulate good owners who can supply good horses – one of the most competitive parts of being a good trainer. Keep the business solvent.
Choose/Lead/Teach staff to do the best they can to contibute to making the horses as good as they can be.
Understand each owner.
Teach/Train the owners.
Help the jockeys know your horse.
Talk with the press in a way that demostrates your skill as a trainer, without being a pillock.
Keep on the right side of the BHA.
Oh yes – and get the horse fit to run.
I watched a video interview of the great Sir Henry Cecil just a week ago where he said the three greatest attributes for a trainer were – patience, patience, patience. I think he said that quite a few times. But in his usual way, it was a good quote but gave no insight into the bits he was holding back, like knowing when it’s the right time to stop being patient, and, while being patient, what you could be doing to improve the chances of the horse reaching its full potential. Full of craft that man, in many more ways than one.
I reckon you are just trying to wind us up, but that’s what makes people post on here sometimes. So I hope thare are quite a few responses. What does a Trainer do? A few things off the top of my head, all of which trainers have the opportunity to be rubbish or brilliant at, and all stages in between. Which is why some have a more successful career than others.
Understand the horse, and what the horse needs to be the best it can. Notice every detail about every horse every day.
Teach the horse how to run. Match horses with work riders. Choose the detail of the work each horse needs.
Teach the horse all the mental stuff: like how and when to be competitive, when to relax, when to fight, how to respond to a riders messages, etc.
Run a business, especially accumulate good owners who can supply good horses – one of the most competitive parts of being a good trainer. Keep the business solvent.
Choose/Lead/Teach staff to do the best they can to contibute to making the horses as good as they can be.
Understand each owner.
Teach/Train the owners.
Help the jockeys know your horse.
Talk with the press in a way that demostrates your skill as a trainer, without being a pillock.
Keep on the right side of the BHA.
Oh yes – and get the horse fit to run.
I watched a video interview of the great Sir Henry Cecil just a week ago where he said the three greatest attributes for a trainer were – patience, patience, patience. I think he said that quite a few times. But in his usual way, it was a good quote but gave no insight into the bits he was holding back, like knowing when it’s the right time to stop being patient, and, while being patient, what you could be doing to improve the chances of the horse reaching its full potential. Full of craft that man, in many more ways than one.
No I’m not trying to wind you up at all. Thanks for your response anyway.
I’m just curious to know as it seems to be one of those occupations wrapped in mystery. You often hear in the media how such and such is a great racehorse trainer. Without it ever being explained what actually separates him from the rest.
I would imagine that the top racehorse trainers now all have access to pretty much the same top class facilities, all have a similar skill level in bringing the best out of their horses.
So probably the only thing that truly separates them is the quality of racing stock that they have access to. I guess it goes in cycles; Willie Mullins might not be a better trainer than Paul Nicholls but he clearly gets the choicest stock now from the sales in France, therefore he has a lot more superstars now than Nicholls does. Go back a few years though and it was the other way around, so it goes in cycles.
You talk about having patience, that’s something I’d agree with, for example a horse I’m keen on today is a horse called Midterm, who seems to have been brought along steadily by Michael Stoute, who has a similar approach to Stoute.
Doubtless other trainers would have run Midterm much earlier in their two year old career, perhaps too early and wouldn’t have got the same results. So yes I can see how that is a level of skill.
Same with all managers, they need to know those they are managing. Good man or horse management in this respect. Take a football manager, he has to know how to treat certain players so they are as happy as they can be within the environment they work. It’s same with horses but more difficult as the horse cannot tell you want they want, only show this in some kind of emotion which the trainer has to pick up on. The pro to this is that at least the horse cannot go to the media and tell them what a pile of crap you are as a trainer
This question seems to get asked once a year on this forum. Staggers me that people have to ask it to be honest. All lawyers have access to the same books, resources etc. but some are more successful than others. Why is that do you think? You can say the same about any walk of life. Read Alex Fergusons autobiography and you might get an understanding as to how he was able to win a Premier League with the same team that the next manager couldn’t get into the top 5. Eventually if you are good enough you might get the benefits of the best clients, the best players or the best horses but they all have to start from somewhere.
Look at Hugo Palmer – he started in 2011 with 11 horses, look at him now. Why have all the top owners started sending their horses to him? Why don’t they just send them to any old trainer if they all have the same tools for their trade? Did he just get lucky? He has had most of his success with horses bought by syndicates on modest budgets. Look at Covert Love. Read HP’s website and you might get a tiny clue as to what makes him such a good trainer – great communication skills, great knowledge of the breed in general and of the breeding of an individual horse, incredible work ethic and dedication, passion for the job, the latest modern methods mixed with an old-fashioned, intuitive feel for his horses (when to push them, when to lay off, what track is likely to suit, what distance, what ground conditions, what jockey, what work rider, what race tactics, what race, how long between gallops, how long between races, when to feed them, how much to feed them etc) . Yes patience is massive. Look at Sir Michael Stoute and how he has managed year after year to improve his horses from 3 to 4 and 4 to 5. Look at Exosphere and Dartmouth this year. All results of a carefully planned and patient approach. Always doing the right thing by the horse.
Some trainers will use bespoke methods for an individual horse – read the biographies on Sir Henry to discover how he managed to get the best out of tearaways like Frankel or injury prone fillies like Bosra Sham. On the gallops he could tell you which three of his horses were approaching from hundreds of yards away without binoculars; which horse was travelling the best as well. Ask him about an individual horse and he would tell you everything you could ever need to know and more about it. He knew every single horse in his care as well as if it was family. All the little idiosyncrasies and traits. I have only scratched the surface and will have left out hundreds of other things.
Finally I don’t understand why you say it is a profession “wrapped in mystery”. It is not at all if you have any interest in reading about it. There are dozens of books, biographies, autobiographies and articles out there all of which should give you the answers you need. Have a read and you might not need to ask again. To my knowledge there are no books entitled “Trainers – they’re all much of a muchness really aren’t they?!”
"this perfect mix of poetry and destruction, this glory of rhythm, power and majesty: the undisputed champion of the world!!!"
top of my head, all of which trainers have the opportunity to be rubbish or brilliant at, and all stages in between. Which is why some have a more successful career than others.
Understand the horse, and what the horse needs to be the best it can. Notice every detail about every horse every day.
Teach the horse how to run. Match horses with work riders. Choose the detail of the work each horse needs.
Teach the horse all the mental stuff: like how and when to be competitive, when to relax, when to fight, how to respond to a riders messages, etc.
It is a pity that Brough Scott, the author of the book didn’t delve a little more into detail about Cecil’s knowledge and skills as a trainer as oppose to simply saying he was patient, allowed horses to do their thing and of course the darker side to his personal life. Then again, why would Cecil be giving away all his secret’s on horses.
Would have loved to see Cecil or even AP O’Brien at work. Spot on about Stoute, look at the horses that came first, second, third at the King George in 2010 while his Derby winner disappointed. Look at some of their backgrounds. Hope Exosphere can run on from this . I wished Snow Sky was given another season to see if he could tackle the stayers races
This question seems to get asked once a year on this forum. Staggers me that people have to ask it to be honest. All lawyers have access to the same books, resources etc. but some are more successful than others. Why is that do you think? You can say the same about any walk of life. Read Alex Fergusons autobiography and you might get an understanding as to how he was able to win a Premier League with the same team that the next manager couldn’t get into the top 5. Eventually if you are good enough you might get the benefits of the best clients, the best players or the best horses but they all have to start from somewhere.
Look at Hugo Palmer – he started in 2011 with 11 horses, look at him now. Why have all the top owners started sending their horses to him? Why don’t they just send them to any old trainer if they all have the same tools for their trade? Did he just get lucky? He has had most of his success with horses bought by syndicates on modest budgets. Look at Covert Love. Read HP’s website and you might get a tiny clue as to what makes him such a good trainer – great communication skills, great knowledge of the breed in general and of the breeding of an individual horse, incredible work ethic and dedication, passion for the job, the latest modern methods mixed with an old-fashioned, intuitive feel for his horses (when to push them, when to lay off, what track is likely to suit, what distance, what ground conditions, what jockey, what work rider, what race tactics, what race, how long between gallops, how long between races, when to feed them, how much to feed them etc) . Yes patience is massive. Look at Sir Michael Stoute and how he has managed year after year to improve his horses from 3 to 4 and 4 to 5. Look at Exosphere and Dartmouth this year. All results of a carefully planned and patient approach. Always doing the right thing by the horse.
Some trainers will use bespoke methods for an individual horse – read the biographies on Sir Henry to discover how he managed to get the best out of tearaways like Frankel or injury prone fillies like Bosra Sham. On the gallops he could tell you which three of his horses were approaching from hundreds of yards away without binoculars; which horse was travelling the best as well. Ask him about an individual horse and he would tell you everything you could ever need to know and more about it. He knew every single horse in his care as well as if it was family. All the little idiosyncrasies and traits. I have only scratched the surface and will have left out hundreds of other things.
Finally I don’t understand why you say it is a profession “wrapped in mystery”. It is not at all if you have any interest in reading about it. There are dozens of books, biographies, autobiographies and articles out there all of which should give you the answers you need. Have a read and you might not need to ask again. To my knowledge there are no books entitled “Trainers – they’re all much of a muchness really aren’t they?!”
Didn’t one of his horses lose a race for failing a drugs test?
This may be an interesting book for you to read. Strctly Classified by Marten Julian.
You are right MV – he is just a wind up
"this perfect mix of poetry and destruction, this glory of rhythm, power and majesty: the undisputed champion of the world!!!"
You are right MV – he is just a wind up
Why am I a wind-up?
I ask a perfectly reasonable question. All you do is come back with belittling comments about how I should read more books.
I’ve read more books on racing than you’ve had hot dinners pal.
Go back to your Hugo Palmer fan club.
You’ve read nothing son. I did not just come back with belittling comments I answered your question to which you came back with an inane comment about drugs. We don’t need your type on a racing forum.
"this perfect mix of poetry and destruction, this glory of rhythm, power and majesty: the undisputed champion of the world!!!"
Hugo Palmer is a decent enough trainer and comes across as a pleasant enough character, but he’s had the huge advantage of coming from an extremely wealthy family – he’s actually The Honourable Hugo, he’ll be Lord Palmer one day.
This has no doubt enabled him to not only get going in the first place, but also to keep afloat before he started getting some winners, not to mention knowing a few of the right people.
Coincidentally, I saw another up-and-coming aristo trainer being interviewd the other day, this time Charlie Fellowes. I think he’s the son of another lord, this time Baron de something-or-other.
If you want to get to the top in the UK as a flat trainer it certainly seems to help if you come from of the right sort of family, with a titled parent a special bonus!
Yes he’s just a lucky toff
"this perfect mix of poetry and destruction, this glory of rhythm, power and majesty: the undisputed champion of the world!!!"
Don’t need your trolling type on a forum either you numpty, disparaging my comment because I dare to question what is so special about being a racehorse trainer. Clearly my comment hit a nerve, as the thought that it’s the animal that is by far the most important factor rather than the trainer is something you have difficulty coming to terms with.
After all horse racing trainers are so important- must be at least 95 percent- the horse maybe 5 percent- nothing to do with the fact that Gosden Mullins etc get the very best stock.
As for the comment on drugs it’s a legitimate question to ask these days given the amount of drugs scandals that come out in sport. Godolphin had a trainer banned recently for example. And people were raving about his “skills” before he got found out.
Anyway It’s arrogant clowns like you that put people off posting on a forum- your comment about “we don’t your type on a racing forum” sums you up.
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