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Ideally you would want him to run in the Champion Stakes but that would not be ideal after his tough race in the Arc.
Of course the Breeders Cup would be a big coup for racing although sadly BBC or C4 would probably not show it live which would be a shame being at 10.30 on a Saturday night would be a big showcase for World Horse Racing.
The Arc is Europes equivalent to the BC and the cheer that STS got at Longchamp was the sort of thing you see at Cheltenham with Mick Kinane draping the Irish flag over himself and was a joy to watch.
For the sport i would say Yes run him in the BC and show them that Europe has got a horse to win the Classic but it could be one race to many and the Yanks may go all out box him in and rough him up.
Surely his owner would want him to run over in the Far East so he can see his pride and joy run on home soil.
Whatever happens he owes connection nothing and it has been a pleasure to have this wonderful 3yo excite and give us a flat season to remember for a very very long time.
Ideally you would want him to run in the Champion Stakes but that would not be ideal after his tough race in the Arc.
Of course the Breeders Cup would be a big coup for racing although sadly BBC or C4 would probably not show it live which would be a shame being at 10.30 on a Saturday night would be a big showcase for World Horse Racing.
The Arc is Europes equivalent to the BC and the cheer that STS got at Longchamp was the sort of thing you see at Cheltenham with Mick Kinane draping the Irish flag over himself and was a joy to watch.
but it could be one race to many and the Yanks may go all out box him in and rough him up.
Surely his owner would want him to run over in the Far East so he can see his pride and joy run on home soil.
Whatever happens he owes connection nothing and it has been a pleasure to have this wonderful 3yo excite and give us a flat season to remember for a very very long time.
First of all i don’t see why we should show them anything. Secondly, Europe won it last season, thirdly it will be won by a European horse again this season, even if STS dosen’t turn up. Last of all, the Americans will just hit out with the synthetics excuse regardless of who wins it.
Should STS travel all the way over there to give their coffers a nice we jump, no thanks. They don’t care what anyone else thinks about their horses, so i don’t see why we should be looking to appease them.
We can’t even be sure that Zenyatta will turn up, so i was the owner of STS i’d let him gracefully retire as the worlds best horse.
I thoroughly enjoyed the last Breeders Cup and i will enjoy the upcoming event aswell. It would be great to see STS v RVW over a flat 10f, but i feel enough is enough and STS has earned enough to call it a day.
I agree with all The Vintner has said on the subject. We do have end of season Championships – they just get spread over the QEII, Arc Weekend and Champions Day. Perhaps not ideal but do offer most of the categories.
Maybe I’m just a romantic but I’d love STS to do the job in Santa Anita that Dancing Brave so disappointingly failed to do 23 years.
I thought this was as good a thread as any to pose this question.
A horse was put down at Santa Anita on Saturday after taking a false step (Pro-Ride). Would this have more to do with the horse, or with the state of the surface?
… I’d love STS to do the job in Santa Anita that Dancing Brave so disappointingly failed to do 23 years.
from that angle Santa Anita also has a history with the Tsuis.
the dam Urban Sea finished her 3-y-o season by coming last at Santa Anita in the 1992 Yellow Ribbon Invitational (a race missing from her RP database):
http://www.breederscup.com/bio.aspx?id=21194#
when Urban Sea then won the Arc as a 4-y-o, her next race was the Japan Cup, where she finished 8th.
in both seasons Urban Sea had been on the go basically from just as early and just as much as her son has been this season, so to that extent there is "previous" in the bloodline.
somehow though i think a US trip would be no-win for STS for the reasons given in posts above, particularly the US wisecracking about the Turf being run in two divisions this year, the other being called the Classic.
if i wanted to ramp up the size of the inevitable – and likely ultimately successful – offer from Sh Mo for the horse, i would be looking to get someone like Shadai in as the main counter-bidder.
hence would try to be seen to be looking at the Japan Cup, as with the dam post-Arc – not that i would actually expect to have to go there.
but then maybe i’m too early in assuming the economic demise of the US as regards the very top sires…..
best regards
wit
If the big trainers and owners cared about money, we’d have seen Canford Cliffs in the Goffs Million Sprint, Arcano in the Timeform Million, Chabal in the Goffs Million Mile, Special Duty in the Watership Down, etc.
Magnier couldn’t give 2 hoots about the BC Classic prize money. $3m for 1st? £1.7m – he makes that from 15 (at the absolute most) visits to Galileo, and how many mares does he cover most years? Probably around the 100 mark.
Danehill Dancer, Galileo, Montjeu, Encosta De Lago and Giant’s Causeway all bring in mega bucks and makes prize money to them a total after-thought. All it does is make it a lot easier for certain owners and trainers to go after championships. Lillie Langtree and Alfred Nobel were at Newmarket last week for two simple reasons – to win O’Brien the trainers’ championship and to win Danehill Dancer the sires’ championsip.
Someone’s column in the RP on Monday thought that if the Leger’s prize money were more like that of the Irish Champion Stakes’, then Sea The Stars would have been lining up at Doncaster instead. Utter twaddle. Does Tsui really care about £250k? My arse he does. Even before he won at Leopardstown his fee was almost guaranteed to be around the €50,000 mark. 6 or 7 visits (depending on negotiation), bang, there’s your £250k.
Secondly, Europe won it last season, thirdly it will be won by a European horse again this season, even if STS dosen’t turn up.
Hang on a sec, Graeme…
The trainers of the unbeaten Zenyatta, the stamina laden Summer Bird, the rejuvenated Quality Road, transplanted Arc winner Rail Trip, the classy Gio Ponti and the strangely underrated ansd utterly brilliant Mine That Bird to name but a few may have something to say about that. I would seriously fancy STS yes – who wouldn’t! -but no Classic has ever been a walkover and this looks a top quality Classic this year.
Last of all, the Americans will just hit out with the synthetics excuse regardless of who wins it.
Some of them will, Graeme. Andy Beyer can be a bit of an a**e, granted and trainers like Baffert and Sadler are over-patriotic, but of all sports, horse racing isn’t all that parochial. It’s certainly less insular than it used to be. Ouija Board’s second F & M victory was greeted with wild applause from the Churchill Downs railbirds, for example and she still has a fan club over the pond.
Apologies to all. I’ve got no idea how to edit posts and I’ve just noticed that I’ve merged Rail Trip with Rail Link.
Early mornings were never a strong point.Disagree that O’Brien sends horses to the BC just for the prize money. It’s the prestige and stud value. A win in the BC Classic opens up another world for a stallion and the chance to stand in Kentucky.
Exactly. The European breeders knew Galileo or Giant’s Causeway boasted immense market value, but across the pond they wouldn’t bat an eyelid at a Vodafone Derby or Sussex/St James’ Palace winner.
Secondly, Europe won it last season, thirdly it will be won by a European horse again this season, even if STS dosen’t turn up.
The trainers of the unbeaten Zenyatta, the stamina laden Summer Bird, the rejuvenated Quality Road, transplanted Arc winner Rail Trip, the classy Gio Ponti and the strangely underrated ansd utterly brilliant Mine That Bird to name but a few may have something to say about that. I would seriously fancy STS yes – who wouldn’t! -but no Classic has ever been a walkover and this looks a top quality Classic this year.Last of all, the Americans will just hit out with the synthetics excuse regardless of who wins it.
Some of them will, Graeme. Andy Beyer can be a bit of an a**e, granted and trainers like Baffert and Sadler are over-patriotic, but of all sports, horse racing isn’t all that parochial. It’s certainly less insular than it used to be. Ouija Board’s second F & M victory was greeted with wild applause from the Churchill Downs railbirds, for example and she still has a fan club over the pond.
Yeah they should all form a que to see who can get the best look of Rip Van Winkles ass. I don’t even think Zenyatta will turn up. I think Mastercraftsman will be as much a danger to RVW as Summer Bird and Mine that Bird, especially if they were to book Velasquez up. Yes i’m being a bit ignorant, but that’s only because i think this flat 10 will be right up RVW’s street.
Mine that Bird is a decent price from the American angle admitedly, if it’s run last season at Santa Anita can be excused. It’s the only American horse i’ve got something on for this particular race.
And to think it the Americans that are often considered arrogant and insular….
Presumably you are being deliberately flippant. The Breeders’ Cup Classic is a $5 Million challenge which often showcases the Eclipse Horse of the Year in USA.
Nope Adrian I was being absolutely serious. Just because it has a $5,000,000 tag does not mean the Americans can just "buy" a top race. I concede it may be the top "all weather" race in the world, but that is all it is, a glorified all weather race.
As for showcasing the Eclipse Horse of the Year in America – what relevance is that for people over here? If you have an interest in American racing then fine – if not then who cares – it is just as relevant to me as the champion racehorse in Peru or Outer Mongolia.
As you know John Gosden didn’t think it meaningless for Raven’s Pass last year. Aidan O’Brien wants to run Rip Van Winkle and Mastercraftsman in order for them to star on one of the biggest days in racing. Giant’s Causeway was a great horse in Europe but by finishing 2nd in the Classic he paved the way to a fabulous career as a stallion in the States.
Do you seriously think Gosden, O’Brien et al send their horses there for the prestige? Of course not – it is simply for the money.
If some crazy millionaire like Sir Alan Stanford set up a race at some obscure racecourse with a $5,000,000 purse then the big trainers would flock like bees round a honeypot – but that would not necessarily make it meaningful race.
I fully appreciate you are a great fan of American racing and you clearly see the BC from a different perspective than me.
It would have more appeal if it was not surrounded by the typical American hype whereby they assume because it is being held on their hallowed turf (or dirt or whatever other artificial surface they wish to use) that makes it the World Championships because it ain’t.
I certainly know, without any shadow of doubt whatsoever, if I owned a horse the class of Sea The Stars then he would not be allowed anywhere near the Breeders Cup.
But that is just my personal view and I fully accept others will disagree.
And to think it the Americans that are often considered arrogant and insular….
Edit – I was going to respond but decided not to lower myself to your level
Getting back to the original thread, I don’t think the Breeders’ Cup has in any way harmed the Arc meeting, or reduced its lustre.
As I’ve posted on a number of occasions recently, the catastrophic slump in the sport/industry’s fortunes in America cannot be overestimated. The whole game there, after 30 or so years of significant, but relatively gentle, decline, is now sliding over the edge of a vertical precipice.
The illusory benefits of "slots" are about to be wiped out, as economically ravaged voters in the 38 states where thoroughbred horseracing is permitted, are starting to ask questions about why some of the enormous profits of the casino side of tracks’ operations are being diverted to cross-subsidising the lossmaking racing side of the business, instead of going to the state coffers to be spent on schools, roads etc, which is the
sole
reason why slots have been allowed on racetracks in recent years. Americans, in general, are not very keen on subsidies, and more and more are asking why horseracing should be the recipient of them.
Since American racing seems totally incapable of providing any leadership whatsoever in sorting out its many problems, eg competition from casinos, drugs ("legal" and otherwise), plummeting attendances, horses being only able to run half as many times as 40 years ago, increasing numbers of horses dying on the track, inability to connect with the public, no television profile, etc etc, then any perceived problem with the BC outcompeting the Arc meeting will disappear over the next 5 or 10 years as the sport kills itself off.
I saw your response….something along the lines of "an insult – is that all you can come up with?"
Well to be honest I do not see how it is possible not to rate that previous posting of yours as arrogant and certainly insular in your view of American racing and racing outside of Europe in general. Thank goodness the likes of Dermot Weld (Melbourne Cups etc), Godolphin, Aidan O’Brien, Michael Stoute along with the likes of connections of the Australian sprinters, connections of Overdose, Luca Cumani for spotting Falbrav in Italy etc etc do not follow your apparent line of thinking in that the racing world ends just on the border of Paris or just because it is different it means little or nothing.
And to think it the Americans that are often considered arrogant and insular….
Edit – I was going to respond but decided not to lower myself to your level
Well to be honest I do not see how it is possible not to rate that previous posting of yours as arrogant and certainly insular in your view of American racing and racing outside of Europe in general. Thank goodness the likes of Dermot Weld (Melbourne Cups etc), Godolphin, Aidan O’Brien, Michael Stoute along with the likes of connections of the Australian sprinters, connections of Overdose, Luca Cumani for spotting Falbrav in Italy etc etc do not follow your apparent line of thinking in that the racing world ends just on the border of Paris or just because it is different it means little or nothing.
Each to their own.
Insular – yes I am and I don’t see a problem with that, you make it sound as if being insular is bad.
One has to define boundaries in all walks of life and there is more than enough racing in this country and to a lesser extent Ireland to keep one interested. To me a competitive turf handicap in this country is of more interest that an all weather race in America.
I don’t accept the arrogant point though.
If I were to insist others shared my view that would be arrogant.
If I were to insult those who took an opposing view, that would be arrogant.
If I were to suggest I was right and everyone else wrong, that would be arrogant.
Simply expressing a view is not arrogance – being intolerant of others views is, I suggest, supreme arrogance.
I make no secret I have very little interest in American racing – I would suggest most British football fans have little or any interest in MLS in the USA – does that make them insular and arrogant?
Do you have an interest in racing in every country in the world where it takes place?
If so perhaps you could give us your considered opinion on next weeks racing in India.
If you have no interest in Indian racing are you not also being insular, but just with different boundaries than me?
Your quoting of the actions of trainers is irrelevant in the context of the point I am making – it is their job to be aware of the international racing scene.
You might not have an interest in it, no one is telling you to…but I think a little more respect is required. If an American came on here downplaying Sea The Star’s performances in the Arc and or Epsom in comparison to what Rachel Alexandra has done I would say the same thing. If he does not care, has no interest or understanding of the Arc and Epsom – he should then simply not comment on it rather than talk something down that he blatently does not get.
For the record I think insular is a bad thing – no harm in having a preference of your European racing (by the sounds of things the UK and Ireland is your only interest – STS needed have bothered turning up in the Arc then)but it shouldn’t cut you off from the wider worlds racing particularly when it impacts on our own so much in terms of breeding etc.
Well to be honest I do not see how it is possible not to rate that previous posting of yours as arrogant and certainly insular in your view of American racing and racing outside of Europe in general. Thank goodness the likes of Dermot Weld (Melbourne Cups etc), Godolphin, Aidan O’Brien, Michael Stoute along with the likes of connections of the Australian sprinters, connections of Overdose, Luca Cumani for spotting Falbrav in Italy etc etc do not follow your apparent line of thinking in that the racing world ends just on the border of Paris or just because it is different it means little or nothing.
Each to their own.
Insular – yes I am and I don’t see a problem with that, you make it sound as if being insular is bad.
One has to define boundaries in all walks of life and there is more than enough racing in this country and to a lesser extent Ireland to keep one interested. To me a competitive turf handicap in this country is of more interest that an all weather race in America.
I don’t accept the arrogant point though.
If I were to insist others shared my view that would be arrogant.
If I were to insult those who took an opposing view, that would be arrogant.
If I were to suggest I was right and everyone else wrong, that would be arrogant.
Simply expressing a view is not arrogance – being intolerant of others views is, I suggest, supreme arrogance.
I make no secret I have very little interest in American racing – I would suggest most British football fans have little or any interest in MLS in the USA – does that make them insular and arrogant?
Do you have an interest in racing in every country in the world where it takes place?
If so perhaps you could give us your considered opinion on next weeks racing in India.
If you have no interest in Indian racing are you not also being insular, but just with different boundaries than me?
Your quoting of the actions of trainers is irrelevant in the context of the point I am making – it is their job to be aware of the international racing scene.
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