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Walter Swinburn

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  • #58163
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    Quote: from madman marz on 10:15 pm on May 12, 2007[br]Guys if the horse is good enough anyone can train it. Tell me if Mick Halford or John Quinn had the expensive blue bloods that Aiden O Brien and Said bin Suroor have in their care, they wouldnt be able to do the same job ?????????????????<br>

    I agree with that, most trainers just stumble through life. Never understood when someones described as a good or great placer of horses, can’t be that difficult surely.

    #58164
    Smithy
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    Oasis Dream was Champion sprinter, but the campaign he endured as a 3yo was hardly well thought out imo.

    #58165
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    Quote: from Smithy on 10:07 am on May 13, 2007[br]Oasis Dream was Champion sprinter, but the campaign he endured as a 3yo was hardly well thought out imo.

    How Smithy? He followed the conventional route winning 2 G1’s and 2nd in another. The only quibble you could possibly have is running in the Breeders Cup Mile instead of the L’Abbaye which they most likely thought worth doing.

    #58166
    Smithy
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    Not fit for the King’s Stand, asked to run on unsuitably soft ground at Haydock and then sent to the BC Mile (when the Nunthorpe showed he was all speed).

    No doubting his ability – he was top notch – but could he have been even better?

    #58167
    apracing
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    <br>Re Oasis Dream – but who was making the decisions? The trainer, the owner, or his racing manager.

    AP

    #58168
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    Don’t think you can question running at Haydock with Oasis Dream, the time tells you the ground wasn’t that bad and he was 8/11 to win. Where would he have run if he hadn’t run there?

    #58169
    beauzam
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    Sound point AP but why stretch him out around two turns in the BC mile?

    #58170
    Grimes
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    Quote: from cormack15 on 10:02 pm on May 9, 2007[br]Harsh stuff Bear. Gosden has a great record of big race wins while Dunlop’s record is also beginning to stack up.  <br>

    I believe Wemyss Bight won a French classic for Gosden.

    #58171
    Smithy
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    Valentine Waltz may have done – Wemyss Bight was trained by Fabre if I recall correctly.

    #58172
    davidjohnson
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    Zenda also won the Pouliches for Gosden/Abdullah.

    #58173
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    Muhtarram won the Irish Champion Stakes, (and the Prince of Wales, then a G2).

    #58174
    madman marz
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    Quote: from Smithy on 3:29 pm on May 13, 2007[br]Valentine Waltz may have done – Wemyss Bight was trained by Fabre if I recall correctly.<br>

    Didn’t wemyss bight win the Irish Oaks with Pat Eddery on board

    #58175
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    Certainly did, Madman; at 9/2 in 1994.

    Beaten in our Oaks by Intrepidity – under Michael Roberts, who incidentally was sacked that season as Sheikh Mohammed’s main jockey possibly on the recommendation of John Gosden, (who like Stoutey with Richard Hughes), refused to use him on his horses.

    #58176
    Smithy
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    So re Gosden, we have established that over a 15+ year period training a barn full of the best-bred horses on the planet, he has managed to produce a couple of Classic winners, a top sprinter and a handful of other Group 1 performers.

    Some might say that was a slightly disappointing return, but it is all about opinions!

    #58177
    Sal
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    Is this the time to bring up the point about Gosden being unable to get his horses to win two Group 1s in a row?  Other trainers seem to manage it with their stars on regular occasions – half a dozen horses last year won two or three consecutively – yet Gosden has only managed it three times in 15 years.  Even with his best horses he can’t seem to get them to produce consistently.

    #58178
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    Sal 3 out of how many horses, do you know? thanks.<br>I think you have to look at each individual horse, in the case of Nannina a defeat on unsuitably soft ground in the Guineas sandwiched by 2 G1’s is perfectly excusable imo.

    #58179
    Sal
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    In the last 15 years he’s trained just about 2000 horses.  He’s won 32 Gr1 races in that time, yet very few of those Gr1 winners have gone on to be champions.  Comparing his record with someone like Michael Stoute (58 Gr1s) over the same time period shows that he is lacking something.  

    I take your point about one unlucky run breaking a sequence, but when using that as a guide it is the same for everyone.  In the same time period I can think of at least 9 Stoutey horses that have run up a Gr1 sequence, while Godolphin and O’Brien are probably into double figures (although I gave up counting to have my lunch!).

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