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Tom Segal today. Ruby and Paul

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  • #6778
    clivex
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    in the weekender

    Asserts that

    – Ruby is the finest NH jockey we have seen (on staying chasers at least)

    – and less directly, Nichols is the greatest trainer of jumpers

    Cant post article here and havent the time to go through the reasoning…

    I wouldnt be too inclined to disagree myself …

    #144974
    thedarkknight
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    Nicholls has very good horses at the moment and he is receiving a lot of gushing praise from the media as and when they inevitably win big races impressively.

    He is a decent trainer imo, but I’m not entirely sure he is significantly "overachieving" with the horses he has at his disposal.

    #144980
    clivex
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    true but Segal brings up the decent point that the likes of Denman and Kauto are now running up very impressive sequences that were beyond the M Pipe horses at his peak and enternally beyond other trainers (jonjo :D )

    it is perhaps his skill (genius?) at keeping them on the boil for so long that impresses.

    #144984
    thedarkknight
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    ..or perhaps it is just they that they are exceptional horses….

    The word genius is used far too often these days and Paul Nicholls doesn’t come close to being a genius for me.

    #144987
    Himself
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    Walsh is a very good jockey; of that there is littlle doubt – though I still think it was due to him (rather than the horse’s fault) that Kauto Star walloped those final fences.

    The best ever though ?

    AP still has a march on him, I believe, and by some distance.

    The best over the jumps, in my opinion, was John Francome. Dunwoody wasn’t too bad either – and Jonjo was my favourite over hurdles.

    Gambling Only Pays When You're Winning

    #144988
    clivex
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    He never chased titles, and refused to play the numbers game

    Not sure about that…. One year it got very ugly :shock:

    Genius (i typed it to be provocative…) is a stupid expression and for me there isnt a single trainer who would seriously demand that label, which is really for great innovators or those that make you stop in your tracks and wonde "how on earth"…in all fields of life

    TDK. Its the management of those fine horses that counts though? Thats really all that training is about perhaps. But anyone better across either code?

    #144992
    thedarkknight
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    It is very hard to measure accurately by I very much doubt he is the best clivex.

    I remember everyone saying the same about Aidan O’Brien when he had all of the best 2yos one season. Was he a "genius"? No – he did a good job with fantastic horses – and when the quality of the horses dipped – so did his results.

    #144993
    Anonymous
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    • Total Posts 17716

    He never chased titles, and refused to play the numbers game

    Considering the way he entered and ran his horses at the end of the 05/06 season, when he was vying with M Pipe for the trainer’s championship, that is a preposterous statement!

    #144994
    Salselon
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    Now, you’re just being ridiculous.

    They were as bad as each other, and the career of one Azertuyiop was ruined as a result.

    #144997
    apracing
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    Segal is simply too young and like most of his generation thinks history started ten years ago!

    Top class horses running up a sequence and kept going over several years – how about Mill House, Diamond Edge, Special Cargo (Fulke Walwyn), or Night Nurse, Bula, Sea Pigeon, Desert Orchid, See You Then, Burrough Hill Lad, Corbiere, The Fellow, Red Rum, Morley Street, etc etc.

    That’s at least ten different trainers without even considering Irish horses and I’m sure we can come up with others.

    AP

    #144998
    clivex
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    Echo that…

    you at Kempton saturday andrew?? :D

    AOB gets the "genius" tag stuck on him more than most partly because of the somehwat nerdish image. Not that he plays up to it (in fact he fights his natural shyness admirably i think), but it seduces others…

    But of course, he is a really fine trainer

    Nichols wont get labelled the same (and wouldnt want to be i sense) beacuse hes so matter of fact and straightforward. Theres no mystique, cultivated or imagined…

    #145000
    carvillshill
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    Who’s Andrew?
    Just curious.

    #145003
    underscore
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    • Total Posts 537

    Segal is just a lazy journo…what is the point of that article.. How about doing your job and spotting some "Horses" that provide excellent betting opportunities for punters. If you are going to do a piece of Trainers or Jocks how about a detailed review of his training techniques. I’ve yet to read one decent article or book which details the day to day training technique of a NH trainer.

    #145004
    Bulwark
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    Nicholls does have some really nice horses, but to be fair if one of his looks to have potential they can usually build on it. Look at another big money stable – jonjos potentially top horses, what has happened to them, they soon find themselves in decline, Black Jack looked like a world beater two seasons ago, now he’s possibly too short at 33-1 for the world hurdle. Witchita lineman? Butlers cabin? Both won there last year, where arethey now? Even think Exotic Dancer has looked to be in a bit of decline this season, his King George looked nowhere near his best.

    Nicholls definitely seems to get some good horses sent to him, but with a good horse at his yard the sky appears to be the limit.

    Just look at what he goes to cheltenham with Twist Magic, Masterminded, Kauto Star, Denman, Noland, Celestial Halo, Breedsbreeze, Silverburn, Rippling Ring. Then he has the likes of Turko, Star Du Mohaison and Neptune collonges. He is cheltenham 2008.

    Jonjo on the other hand, despite having a big money stable goes there with Albertas Run (probably his best chance) and Exotic Dancer and what looks to be a long list of also rans to be.

    Sure Nicholls goes there with some good horses but its not like hes the only one who has had any decent horses the last few years.

    Nicky Henderson and King go there with some strongish contenders in some areas too though but not like what nicholls looks to have.

    #145005
    clivex
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    Segal is simply too young and like most of his generation thinks history started ten years ago!

    Coffin dodgers on here are simply too old and think the world stopped with the introduction colour television, the end of rationing and Arkles last race

    They blame the permissive society

    :)

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