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I like Francombe and while I do disagree with him on sometimes and he couldn’t tip rubbish he is entitled to his opinion.
I have mixed feelings about JF.
I think that he’ll defend his "mates" to the last and savage others he doesn’t know for similar things. He can be a bit moody, I’ve noticed.As for his tipping prowess, he often pinpoints outsiders with a decent chance and they often run into a place and sometimes win at a huge price.
When he told McGrath that Prime Defender wouldn’t act on the course you could see Jimbo thinking "chut, I’ve done my dough here" and so it proved.
He can talk some rubbish at times when he ventures outwith racing but I listen carefully to what he has to say – when he is negative (which admittedly isn’t all that often) about a horse he is almost invariably correct.
Spot on Corm- he’s actually the only one worth listening to on C4 as I’ve said here before.I’ve learnt a lot by listening to him and he was spot on again about Prime Defender on Saturday, taking on Racing’s Most Overrated Pundit and winning.
In which other sport are TV presenters so contemptuous (and would include Plunkett here too) of their audience?
Does a cricket pundit dismiss any criticism of a bad shot on the basis that the viewer "doesnt play the game"? Does Alan Hanson routinely defend all defenders mistakes beacuse the MOTD audience "are too busy stabbing each other to paly football" (or words to that effect)?
Completely agree, Clivex. Listening to Alec Stewart, Jonathan Agnew and Vic Marks replying to listener’s phone calls and emails during the Third Test was a great example. They gave their opinion, disagreed where they felt appropriate but treated the callers with respect. None of them felt the need to point out that they had played Test cricket nor to suggest that anyone who hadn’t didn’t know what they were talking about.
Yes, true Clivex and Andrew, but this is completely different to horse racing isn’t it – infact it’s not even worthy of comparison.
Ok so we may never have played Premiership football or Test cricket, but we’ve all played football and cricket haven’t we?
It’s easy to have a game of football or cricket after school, on a weekend with the lads from the pub etc – and much of it is organised. So although we are not playing at the top level, we are there, playing the game, gaining knowledge of the game, and basing opinions…. all from a player’s point of view and not a spectator’s.
How many of us can say the same about horse racing? How many of you have got your horses out on a weekend, put six flights of hurdles in the local park, and raced your mates on their horses? NONE.
So in horse racing, unlike football and cricket, the only chance you get to participate in the sport is if you actually become a jockey – you don’t have to become a footballer or cricketer to participate in those sports do you?
Therefore, in my opinion, horse racing pundits (who used to ride in horse races) are far more entitled to be dismissive of public opinion in thier sport than football or cricket pundits are in their sports. I’m not saying it’s completely right, I’m just saying I can see where Francome is coming from if he dismisses someone’s opinion based on they’ve never ridden in a horse race before, whereas I wouldn’t be able to say the same if Hansen dismissed someone’s opinion based on they’ve never played professional football before.
Mike
A valid point, Mike.
But it is often the dismissiveness in the attitude of the said ex-jockeys, and people who have ridden, that is so hard to stomach.
Colin
If he has been dismissive of ex or current jockeys views then I’d have to disagree with his attitude. He is fully entitled to his own views as we are all fully aware, but it would be wrong of him to dismiss the view of someone who is equally qualified to comment.
Like I alluded to earlier, most of Joe Public aren’t qualified to comment on what it’s like to make a split second decision at the two furlong marker because we’ve never been in that position. Still I’m not saying I’m a fan of people dismissing other people’s views regardless of how qualified they are to comment, I’m just saying I can understand why some people do it.
Mike
"If he has been dismissive of ex or current jockeys views then I’d have to disagree with his attitude. He is fully entitled to his own views as we are all fully aware, but it would be wrong of him to dismiss the view of someone who is equally qualified to comment."
I don’t think I’ve said, or implied, that, Mike, think you may have mis-read or misunderstood what I was trying to say.
Colin
I can’t imagine why anyone would think that its a good idea to rid Channel 4 of its only piece of real knowledge. Maybe we just need Big Mac, Barry Dennis, and Emma Spencer….that might keep the "punters" happy.
Very good points Mikky.
There can be an assumption among punters that horses are machines that can be made to do exactly what the jockey wishes, whenever the jockey wants. In reality they are anything but and until you actually sit on a horse and have anything to do with them that can be difficult to understand. In addition the speed at which things unfold during a race and the nature of the split second decision making processes that a jockey must undergo (while manoeuvering half a tonne of unco-operative horseflesh in potentially highly dangerous situation where your very well-being is at threat) are concepts that the layman (myslf included) can never really fully appreciate.
Mikky is correct to point out that this is not the case with, say, football or cricket where many of us have at least some experience of what it is like, albeit not at an elite level.
At his stage in life (about the same as me) Francome is entitled to play the grumpy old man role! As others have pointed out, he has been there and done it in the real world of race riding. Unlike most of the other C4 Racing hangers on and parasites he is qualified for the job he does.
He didn’t have a problem jumping hurdles and fences in sunny conditions, unlike the modern day jump wimps!
Like I alluded to earlier, most of Joe Public aren’t qualified to comment on what it’s like to make a split second decision at the two furlong marker because we’ve never been in that positio
Totally disagree
Facing Brett Lee or marking Ronaldo is as far away from a kick about in the park or schools cricket as a donkey ride on blackpool beach is from the champion hurdle
And we know which defenders and which batsmen are making a good or bad job of it.
Why is it different for jockeys? If we are not entitled to point out stinking rides by the likes of Manning then we are equally not in a position to judge a good ride. Its all relative isnt it?
lots of tasks rely on "split second" decsions. Batsmen in cricket have far less time than jockeys and yet we can easily identify a bad shot when we see it
I disagree Clivex.
I don’t think any of us can say exactly what it’s like to be boxed in, wtih a double handful, travelling near to 40mph on a horse with just a split second to make a decision, unless you have experienced it. We can have an opinion on it of course, but surely someone who has experienced it can give a more informed opinion.
However, I can comment on taking a penalty in a pressure situation, being respectful to a referree, arguing with the opposition, being the victim of a dangerous tackle, winning a league, losing a league etc etc – because I’ve experienced it.
Ok it wasn’t at professional level, but then again I was doing it for fun and wasn’t getting paid, so perhaps I shouldn’t have felt pressure, reacted, got upset, etc – but I did.
I’ve also been on a donkey ride, I’ve even sat on a horse, and I can honestly say neither of those situations would qualify me to comment on the situation I mentioned in paragraph one with 100% confidence about what I was talking about.
Mike
"If he has been dismissive of ex or current jockeys views then I’d have to disagree with his attitude. He is fully entitled to his own views as we are all fully aware, but it would be wrong of him to dismiss the view of someone who is equally qualified to comment."
I don’t think I’ve said, or implied, that, Mike, think you may have mis-read or misunderstood what I was trying to say.
Colin
Sorry Colin. I was just commenting on an ‘if he did’ situation and recognise that you didn’t imply what I was commenting on.
Mike
You are missing the point Mikky
I havent run a bank and im not sure what it would be like to do so, but even if i didnt know the full details, I would know that their board made a right mess of it..
In fact, even from a distance, lending at 120% of property values at what was clearly a peak market, was lunacy
And its not just split decisions. Hasnt it been known for some time that trying to come up against the far rail at goodwood is a nightmare? Wasnt this what lester said? "Split second" decisions are made on the basis of preparation and homework, in much the same way as any half decent batsman knows not to give Warne the charge on a turning pitch
I couldnt care less how it feels to ride a racehorse. Thats what they are paid to do.
You do have a point Clivex, but only up to a point.
I think Mikky’s point, with which I totally concur, is that a layman is much more likely to have a greater insight into the likes of football and cricket than he is about riding racehorses. While that doesn’t mean we cannot have an opinion on raceriding it does support the view that our opinion is less likely to be meaningful.
I havent run a bank and im not sure what it would be like to do so, but even if i didnt know the full details, I would know that their board made a right mess of it.. You might know they’d made a mess of it but you wouldn’t necessarilly understand why (without hindsight of course, which is a valuable aid to us all)
The point at issue is not whether it is easier to get an insight into cricket or football than horse racing, it is to do with how professionals and ex-professionals in any sport treat their public. In my opinion, racing is poor at this in some areas.
If any former jockey disagrees with criticism of a bad ride, then they ought to be able to do so in such a way that they educate those of us who have never been in that situation, rather than simply resorting to insulting those who disagree because they haven’t had x amount of winners or won x amount of matches.
He didn’t have a problem jumping hurdles and fences in sunny conditions, unlike the modern day jump wimps!
We’ve been here before, haven’t we – riding at high speed towards four and a half feet of birch in blinding sun doesn’t mark him and his ilk out as harder men, but rather just bloody lunatics.
If any former jockey disagrees with criticism of a bad ride, then they ought to be able to do so in such a way that they educate those of us who have never been in that situation, rather than simply resorting to insulting those who disagree because they haven’t had x amount of winners or won x amount of matches.
Quite. There’s ways and means that ex-sportsmen can inform and imbue a debate with the benefit of their greater first-hand experience without being so utterly aloof, untouchable or downright unpleasant about it.
We’ve already compared and contrasted the likes of football and cricket with racing in this regard, but might I also suggest that most former Formula 1 drivers-turned-pundits appear to be mercifully short of ego where discussing the sport with Joe Public is concerned?
I’ve yet to hear Johnny Herbert resort to "I won Grands Prix – what do you bloody know?!?" or words to that effect on any of his Five Live appearances.
gc
Adoptive father of two. The patron saint of lower-grade fare. A gently critical friend of point-to-pointing. Kindness is a political act.
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