- This topic has 44 replies, 21 voices, and was last updated 15 years, 5 months ago by
.
-
Posts
-
The Triple Crown is the ultimate test of a thoroughbred demonstrating both speed & stamina. In the 19th & the earlier part of the last century racehorses were tougher & more adaptable. Now there is far more specialism in breeding & horses seem to be generally weaker.
Since the middle of the 20thc some breeding pundits have been warning about the obsession with total speed & the danger that this might result in horses that are unable to stay beyond 10 f. There is also too much inbreeding to Northern Dancer & his sons. Where breeders are going to get outcrosses I don’t know, but certainly the gene pool has shrunk dramatically in the last thirty years. you only have to flick through a Stallion Book to see this.
Personally I cannot see breeders applying more stamina to matings as the industry is too commercially driven & the small owner breeders are few. As a previous poster mentioned breeding is all about fashion & this fashion does not include the St Leger. I don’t want to see it changed or open to geldings. IIt is more possible we will see a filly contest it again & win like Oh So Sharp, Meld & Sun Chariot in the 20th c.
Imperial Call says…
Then I believe you would get a lot more interest as you would have a 3yr old who had won group 1 races at 8f, 12f & 10f.And why not the leger distance to find a super horse that can cope with all distances?
We are breeding weaklings these days that are short of so much including stamina.
Compared to the past the horses at the top of the tree are wrapped in cotton wool, only to be unwrapped a few time to perform in public and if the win the derby they are packed off to stud as soon as possible before they break down.
Does anyone know if 1967 Guineas-Derby winner Royal Palace ran in the Leger that year (horse he beat at Epsom, Ribocco, won) – if not, why not? Injured, or bypassed? If so, where did he finish?
I’d have the Dante as the middle leg. The date fits, 10f fits, York is a top racecourse, and it leaves the biggest race, the Derby, as the climax, something that I think would be incredible if a horse came into it after winning the 2000 Guineas and Dante. I’d love it at least. And perhaps it would get racing more publicity.
Royal Palace finished 3rd in the Leger.
As for the Dante it is a bit too close to the Guineas being run less than 2 weeks after it with the Derby just over 3 weeks later. You could rearrange it so it was run on a Saturday and would therefore have the same gap as the US triple crown i.e. 2 weeks and 3 weeks. However why bother, if you really want a leg to be 10f, which I don’t, simply reduce the Leger distance which at least tests a horse’s ability over the season as opposed to a pretty crippling 5 weeks which is a schedule European trainers avoid like the plague.
How can people say the breed is weeker than previous when horses are not asked to perform the same tasks ?
I would say its more likely the sport has gone out of the sport rather than the breed itself being any weeker.
Royal Palace didn’t run in the St Leger, it had been Jim Joel & Noel Murless’s intention to win the Triple Crown with him & he may well have done that if he hadn’t rapped a leg during his preparation for the Great Voltigeur Stakes, this injury took longer than expected to resolve so he did not take part in the final classic.
His pedigree suggested he would have stayed the distance being by Ballymoss a previous winner out of a mare by Solar Slipper who won the Irish Triple Crown. His second dam won the Oaks.- Total Posts 17716
Royal Palace finished 3rd in the Leger.
That’s not correct. He didn’t run in the St. Leger, as he sustained a small injury in the lead up to the race.
A below-par Royal Palace later finished 3rd in the Champion Stakes, but went on to carry all before him in his 4yo season (undefeated in 5 races, including the Eclipse and King George, which he won despite sustaining a leg break in the last few yards, though he was saved for stud, where he sired dual-classic winner Dunfermline, who *did* win the Leger on her sire’s behalf!)
The Eclipse, where he beat Taj Dewan and Sir Ivor by a short head and head, goes down in my book as one of the greatest horse races of all time.
Imperial Call says…
Then I believe you would get a lot more interest as you would have a 3yr old who had won group 1 races at 8f, 12f & 10f.And why not the leger distance to find a super horse that can cope with all distances?
We are breeding weaklings these days that are short of so much including stamina.
Compared to the past the horses at the top of the tree are wrapped in cotton wool, only to be unwrapped a few time to perform in public and if the win the derby they are packed off to stud as soon as possible before they break down.
Do I win a prize for spotting that an impostor has logged into Tom’s account to confuse us?
The ‘Triple Crown of Thoroughbred Racing’ and our very own version present vastly different challenges, regarding both versatility and durability.
Our Triple Crown, in my opinion, demands greater versatility. Any potential candidate has to maintain his / her form over an entire season, with greater emphasis placed on stamina as the season progresses.
The US Triple Crown is run over an extended nine furlongs, ten furlongs and twelve furlongs, respectively, during a four / five week period.
John Gosden was once asked what the difference is between training horses in the US, compared to the UK. His answer was simple. In the US, horses are trained to be sound. In the UK, they are trained to be healthy.
Affirmed became the last horse to claim the USTC in 1978. Nijinsky became the last ETC winner in 1970.
Despite such contrasting demands, both are incredibly hard to achieve.Substantially more horses have attempted the Triple Crown in the States, so it’s interesting that the same number of horses have achieved the feat in both countries during the last 150 years – fifteen.
I’m of the opinion that more horses would win the USTC if given sufficient time between races – I’d love to know how many have fallen at the final hurdle after winning the first two legs. It takes a class horse to win either the Kentucky Derby, Preakness or Belmont Stakes, but a sound horse, despite inferior ability, holds an advantage over a superior, yet flat, rival in the second and third legs.
Summer Bird, beaten 13L into sixth by Mine That Bird at Churchill Downs, reversed the form to beat that rival 3L at Belmont, albeit over two furlongs further. Summer Bird missed the second leg of the Triple Crown.
The USTC is a far more commercial event than ours. US racing needs a Triple Crown. We don’t.
With breeding limitations and a range in trip of six furlongs, our Triple Crown is less obvious. Very few horses have the ability to operate at the highest level over a range of two furlongs, let alone six.
The Leger is a great classic to end the season with and only by altering that can we even consider entertaining the idea of a more commercial ‘Triple Crown’.
I’ve often complained about the lack of quality in recent years and once suggested that it be changed to a ten furlong contest, but it’s the oldest and, for many, their favourite Classic and one thing you dare not mess with in this country is tradition!
In my opinion, Sea The Stars should go to Doncaster. Contrary to what many believe, win or lose, it will have no bearing on his stud value.
If Sea The Stars doen’t line-up for the final Classic, it tells me that the Triple Crown will not be won within the next twenty years, let alone ten.
If connections of Sea The Stars, a horse who, in my opinion, is more effective over middle distances than a mile and could win the race on class alone, don’t consider the Leger and potential Triple Crown as an attractive proposition, then I can’t see where the next candidate will come from.
Our Triple Crown, in my opinion, demands greater versatility. Any potential candidate has to maintain his / her form over an entire season, with greater emphasis placed on stamina as the season progresses.
I’ve no issue with that – problem is that there are so few potential candidates and even fewer that are interested.
Affirmed became the last horse to claim the USTC in 1978. Nijinsky became the last ETC winner in 1970.
Despite such contrasting demands, both are incredibly hard to achieve.Substantially more horses have attempted the Triple Crown in the States, so it’s interesting that the same number of horses have achieved the feat in both countries during the last 150 years – fifteen.
I’m of the opinion that more horses would win the USTC if given sufficient time between races – I’d love to know how many have fallen at the final hurdle after winning the first two legs. It takes a class horse to win either the Kentucky Derby, Preakness or Belmont Stakes, but a sound horse, despite inferior ability, holds an advantage over a superior, yet flat, rival in the second and third legs.
Just using the last 50 years, there were 20 horses who won the first 2 legs of the USTC, with 3 completing the TC – Secretariat, Seattle Slew and Affirmed (three of the greatest racehorses ever). There have been a total of 32 horses that have done the Derby-Preakness double, with 11 TC winners included. There have been 11 horses to have won the Derby-Belmont double after losing the Preakness.
For the first two legs of the ETC, I count Royal Palace, Sir Ivor (he didn’t run in the Leger I think – anyone know why?), Nijinsky, Nashwan and Sea The Stars. Only Nijinsky competed, never mind completed, the TC (albeit waiting on STS). In fact, a Derby winner hasn’t contested in the Leger in
22 years
, since Reference Point in 1987. The last Guineas winner to compete surely must be Nijinsky,
39 years
ago.
Like I said there have been in recent times some horses who won either the Guineas/Derby and were very close in the other. New Approach was a whisker away in the Guineas. Without George Washington, Sir Percy would have been a double winner. Most famous of all, Dancing Brave could have been
The USTC is a far more commercial event than ours. US racing needs a Triple Crown. We don’t.
Why don’t we? What’s wrong with being commercial? This is the crux of my argument. Is it worth preserving the current ETC forever? Even if the Leger is clearly seen as the least valuable leg, so much so, that potential TC winners don’t even bother to compete? Why don’t we commercialize it?
I think the general public would like the idea of a Triple Crown.
I think we, actual fans of the sport, like the idea also, preferably in its current format because of tradition and the notion of it being a somehow more noble challenge, due to its timing and distance. But I’m willing to change for the good of the sport in the future.
- Total Posts 170
Very good debate and RobinfromIreland deserves a lot of credit for being so eloquently written.
Good arguments – and he has me pretty much convinced.
I think the whole shape of the Britsih racing calendar is wrong anyhow. Why have 4 of the 5 ‘classic’s’ by early June. Then wait 3 1/2 months for the last! Just does not add up.
To take a football analogy – there was talk that there would be no difference between between the football league and the Premiership – what is the point in changing a name was asked?
By providing a relaunch – it could give the flat season a real lift.
The telling point he is making – is if you asked top trainers, on the morning of the Guinea’s – if you win then will you go for the Derby with him? 70% will probably say yes. And then ask, if you won the derby – would you go onto the Ledger? Probably only 20% would. Whereas in the US that would be 95% as long as the horse was fit.
if the trainers don’t want to do it – how can the fans get excited about it.
The great thing the jump season has going for it – in my view is its structure. The season may gear around Cheltenham in some people’s view – but it works with decent prior to Xmas. Kepton on Boxing Day. Big trials in Jan. Handicaps in late Feb when we know the big horses are preparing. Cheltenham itself. Aintree. Let along the increasingly popular Punchestown festival which is rising in class every year. It has a rythem which the flat season needs in my ‘little’ opinion
The St. Leger, like the F.A. Cup, does not have the same appeal it once had.
The Arc, for me, remains the ultimate race for middle distance horses anywhere in Europe – hence why the top performers tend to by-pass Doncaster at that time of year, having Longchamps very much in mind.
I think it will be a long time until we see another winner ( if at all ) of the Triple Crown.
Gambling Only Pays When You're Winning
- You must be logged in to reply to this topic.