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True the QMCC wasnt very competitve, but you cant knock the time which was seriously competitive and almost 8 seconds faster than the Arkle on similarish ground.
The entire race hinges on the amount Tidal Bay has improved since the Arkle, I reckon he’s top class but then again so is Master Minded. The prices look about right to me.
Below is quotes from Ruby after the CC i cant see why people are trying to knock him, i am also a fan of Tidal Bay and hope he runs well but i want another superstar in the racing world, when you know Kauto Star or Denman etc are running you really look forward to the race cause you know you will see an animal that will be talked about for years to come so i hope MM wins sat…..
The performance took the breath away from those who know their racing but it took the breath more than anyone from the man who had to hold the reins over those two miles of athletic bliss. Between gulps of air, Ruby tried to explain just what he’d experienced. But he couldn’t really find the words. "Ah, he’s — Jesus, he’s some horse. He’s only a five-year-old! That was — ah sure every step of the way — they went a hell of a gallop and I was running away everywhere — and I was thinking — I’m going so well it doesn’t matter. Just get over the fences, that was all."
I do not think this race hinges on the improvement in TB.
Sandown is diff from Chelt. Assuming both are fully wound up, I do think MM has superior speed than TB and that is why the Nicholls beast will prevail.
TB is gorgeous with a great engine, but MM over 2 miles is a machine.
Maybe I do believe the hype – but what horse could have beaten him at Cheltenhan in the Queen Mother last year?
Zip
In my opinion, this is the most eagerly awaited clash since Kauto Star and Denman.
Both have demonstrated incredible, jaw-dropping abilty, but just how good are they? Was Master Minded’s Queen Mother romp a one-off? How effective will Tidal Bay be against the big boys?
Master Minded’s QM performance was one of the most impressive in modern times, where he defeated former Arkle winner and reigning champion, Voy Por Ustedes, by a staggering 19L.
Tidal Bay has never been out of the first two in fifteen starts. He’s won anywhere between two miles and two miles-five under a variety of conditions. Whatever’s been asked of him, he’s answered in fashion.
There’s no doubt that MM, who claimed the QM on just his fourth start in this country, owes his reputation, lofty rating and forecast odds for this race on that one scintillating effort.
Tidal Bay has demonstrated top class form the moment he stepped on to a racecourse. Through victory or defeat, he’s beaten a plethora of good horses in his career.
On the level he’s beaten Wachita Lineman, Alfie Flits and Kicks For Free, whom he also defeated over timber, along with Osana, Massini’s Maguire (pre-festival), Aran Concerto, Catch Me and Silverburn.
Thus far over the bigger obstacles, he’s twice smashed SunAlliance hero Alberta’s Run. Leading World Hurdle hope Duc De Regniere, former Supreme Novices’ winner Noland, and the talented Takeroc have all been brushed aside, too.
Although Tidal Bay has displayed the consistently better form (given the age difference), Master Minded sets the standard with his Festival triumph. Two years younger than his main rival, MM has the time and class to stake his claim as the greatest two mile chaser in history.
He has to prove that the destruction of Voy Por Ustedes was not just a flash in the pan. VPU, consistent, tough, a dual festival winner and 6lb better for a 5L defeat in the Game Spirit, was surprisingly smashed 19L in March. With much furore about the ground, it’s quite possible that MM was somewhat flattered by that performance. He certainly looked a star of the future on his two previous completed starts in this country, but far from unbeatable.
His capitulation at Aintree, where VPU reversed previous form to thump him 18L, was blamed on the trip. The horse had previously won over two miles-two under very testing conditions in his native country, so how much you want to read into that is at your discretion, especially when connections felt he was a Ryanair candidate. He certainly stopped very quickly once challenged after making the mistake at the second last.
The trip and track will suit Master Minded, who holds a course victory to his name. His slick fencing and natural speed, coupled with a return to front running tactics, will give him the advantage over his main rival.
Conversely, Tidal Bay, labelled a ‘dodgy jumper’ despite never falling in seven starts over fences, including two at Cheltenham, has his own way of getting from A to B. Eccentric is the term I’d perfer to use, but his technique will not be suited to the Sandown course, which places the emphasis on technique and jumping at pace. It’s quite possible that, along with the trip, he could find things happening a shade too quick.
Sandown is a great equaliser of talent. Bold, front-running tactics from sound jumpers can quickly put opponents under pressure around here and Master Minded will test Howard Johnson’s horse to the limit. It all depends on just reliable his QM performance is. If he is as good as that, with everything in his favour, he’ll be very hard to beat.
Despite everything appearing to favour Paul Nicholls horse, I’m going to side with Tidal Bay – just. I’ve been ranting and raving about this horse for a long time and he’s answered every question of him thus far. If he’s within touching distance of Master Minded turning in, eyeballs the arguably ‘soft’ 5YO, then the outcome is inevitable.
Tidal Bay is a proper hard b*****d with a serious engine. He looked far more professional on his seasonal bow and we know he’s as good as ever. It will be interesting to see how he negotiates the Railway fences. He can’t afford to lose too many lengths over them.
A great race in prospect and I’m not going to miss it for anything. I’m going to Sandown and will hopefully witness a tremendous clash. Will it be another MM romp, or will he struggle to fight The Tide?
In my opinion, this is the most eagerly awaited clash since Kauto Star and Denman.
Both have demonstrated incredible, jaw-dropping abilty, but just how good are they?
C’mon Bos – they have either demonstrated "incredible, jaw-dropping ability", and there are therefore no questions about how good they are………or they haven’t quite yet demonstrated "incredible, jaw-dropping ability"……….you can’t have it both ways.
TDK, I hear what you are saying, and of course you’re right that novices always have to improve in their second season to worry the established order. However, even if we concede that MM is ‘only’ a low-170’s animal, Tidal Bay still has to improve a half-stone minimum to get him in a race (and that is giving him the benefit of doubt from runs at Cheltenham and Aintree that aren’t exactly working out).
I have to ask – what are your respective ratings for the pair?
On paper you fully expect to see Master Minded hose up pulling double on the bit on Saturday as he is the best 2m Chaser in my mind since Moscow Flyer.
At the moment though with the Paul Nicholls horses going througha bit of a lean spell then maybe Tidal Bay who should be suited by the track may get himself a nice win in his first season with the big boys.
While 2m4f could be his best trip the way the weather has been may mean that stamina could be called for at the end of the race and Tidal Bay stays this trip a lot more than Master Minded.
So in my mind i think Tidal Bay will get the chance to go 1-0 up in what could be a good battle for the 2m crown this season.
Good scribing effort there, Boransic – you must have enjoyed it
I think Neil’s point about the Nicholls stable is a pertinent one…I still favour MM. TB really will have other days and Sandown over 2m is not his thing imho.
Let’s hope it’s a corker.
Zip
In my opinion, this is the most eagerly awaited clash since Kauto Star and Denman.
Both have demonstrated incredible, jaw-dropping abilty, but just how good are they?
C’mon Bos – they have either demonstrated "incredible, jaw-dropping ability", and there are therefore no questions about how good they are………or they haven’t quite yet demonstrated "incredible, jaw-dropping ability"……….you can’t have it both ways.
TDK, I hear what you are saying, and of course you’re right that novices always have to improve in their second season to worry the established order. However, even if we concede that MM is ‘only’ a low-170’s animal, Tidal Bay still has to improve a half-stone minimum to get him in a race (and that is giving him the benefit of doubt from runs at Cheltenham and Aintree that aren’t exactly working out).
I have to ask – what are your respective ratings for the pair?
I don’t keep ratings, so won’t pretend to have a set figure for either horse. My expectation would be for Master Minded to run something in the low 170s and for Tidal Bay to improve to something in the low 170s.
Hence there is only one way I want to be positioned at the current prices.
Agree with Cav, prices look about right- expect MM to win but wouldn’t bet on it. Amazing how things change: I was certifiable for suggesting Tidal Bay could win an Arkle and was able to get 10s, now everyone wants to be on him at 3/1 for a Tingle Creek against the most impressive QMCC winner in years….
Agree with Cav, prices look about right- expect MM to win but wouldn’t bet on it. Amazing how things change: I was certifiable for suggesting Tidal Bay could win an Arkle and was able to get 10s, now everyone wants to be on him at 3/1 for a Tingle Creek against the most impressive QMCC winner in years….
I think the below average form of the PN stable is probably most to blame for the heightened confidence in TB and if I were to, would only back TB for that reason.
It’s strange that most people on the forum were rating MM so highly due to the proximity of VPU in the CC and now it means nothing….
Did we all have the same dream?
Agree with Cav, prices look about right- expect MM to win but wouldn’t bet on it. Amazing how things change: I was certifiable for suggesting Tidal Bay could win an Arkle and was able to get 10s, now everyone wants to be on him at 3/1 for a Tingle Creek against the most impressive QMCC winner in years….
Summed it up perfectly Carvs. The only thing that can beat Masterminded is himself or a bloody good excuse (Nicholls hasnt really had his masterclass looking in amazing form which is why MMs price is a little short for me), but taking a win only price on a much (not just slightly) inferior horse is lunacy.
What has "flash in the pan" Mastermided beat? Thats not even a serious question when people talk about backing a horse whose win in a slow race at carlisle aginst horses who were stepping down in trip (where he was stepping up), in a race which hasnt really worked out that well, being the best thing since slice bred.
MasterMinded didnt just beat Voy Por Ustedes at Cheters he destroyed him, and as I remember almost everyone on here was on Voy Por for that, as he had two cheltenham wins to his name and wa sreported to be in the form of life, but all of a sudden hes just a mediocre horse.
Tidal Bay on the hand (arguably not as impressively) has slammed the might of Krugaroyova, Takeroc and Rimsky….please
3-1 is only a bet that Master Minded falls and Tidal Bay doesnt.
Carv was only certifiable because he took 10’s when the rest of us got 12’s
As far as VPU being praised prior to Cheltenham I think there is still a videoon u-tube where a panel of would be experts discuss the QMCC. One panelist pointed out that VPU in his opinion was the worstwinner of the QMCC he had ever seen….that is the opinion of many many people while others see it differently. I defy anyone to show me one piece of recent form that points to VPU being a worth 2 mile champion He is very ordinary atthat level to say the least despite the fact Alan King has done wonders with him.
One race does not make a Champion, in any match and this is what this is, where one of the contenders has a glitch in his armour it is often worth taking the risk especially at odds of 7/2.
There were many factors in the QMCC we didn’t know about at the time. A lot of different horses were fancied but here you either fancy Master Minded of you fancy Tidal Bay or you should see an anylyst. There is no comparison in the 2 races and I don’t understand the logic of what has been said.
This Master Minded V Tidal Bay is as much a match as Denman V Kauto Star was and barring accidents they should surely fill the first two places.
In my opinion, this is the most eagerly awaited clash since Kauto Star and Denman.
Both have demonstrated incredible, jaw-dropping abilty, but just how good are they?
C’mon Bos – they have either demonstrated "incredible, jaw-dropping ability", and there are therefore no questions about how good they are………or they haven’t quite yet demonstrated "incredible, jaw-dropping ability"……….you can’t have it both ways.
Grass, they’ve both demonstated incredible ability, but Tidal Bay has to improve on anything he’s done thus far to beat Master Minded. Horses can look world beaters against good opposition and Tidal Bay has beaten good opposition throughout his career, but this is a different test.
Master Minded, who looked invincible in the Queen Mother, still has to prove that he isn’t just another flash in the pan.
That’s the beauty of this race, Grass. Both have provided us with jaw-dropping performances, but they both still have questions to answer.
Is MM the invincible talent we witnessed in the QM?
Will Tidal Bay come up short against one of the big boys away from novice company?
Despite competing and defeating high quality animals throughout his career, Tidal Bay has only been beaten further than half a length in one of his five defeats, which is quite incredible. He doesn’t get beat too often and he doesn’t get beat far, either.
He’s also unbeaten with Denis O’Regan in the saddle.
One thing is for certain, TB has nothing to lose. If he doesn’t show enough pace to compete with MM over two miles, there’s still the option of stepping him up to two and a half / three miles.
Again, a fascinating contest and potentially a really interesting tactical battle.
Why all the doubt about Master Minded’s stamina? The horse won over two miles-two in very testing conditions at Auteuil.
That’s why you have to doubt if stamina was the primary factor behind his capitulation at Aintree.
I’m a bit confused by the statement that Tidal Bay has shown "jaw-dropping" ability.
As stated above defeats of Krugyrova and Takeroc don’t drop my jaw!
Colin
- Total Posts 17716
Why all the doubt about Master Minded’s stamina? The horse won over two miles-two in very testing conditions at Auteuil.
That’s why you have to doubt if stamina was the primary factor behind his capitulation at Aintree.
2m2f around Auteil in heavy ground doesn’t necessarily guarantee a stamina test; only if the race is run at a good pace, which French races rarely are.
Aintree however, for all it’s a sharp course, was run at a truly exceptional pace, and I’d rather take Ruby’s word that stamina was the problem, than FoF’s who says it wasn’t.
If it looks like a duck………?
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