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Direct comparisons are almost impossible
They certainly will be for anyone labouring under the impression that Azertyuiop was better than Moscow Flyer. By default, anyone doing so is already under-valuing MF’s form to the tune of 3-4lbs minimum.
Grasshopper, Gingertipster and other keepers of the faith…points well argued and proven correct
A fine, fine horse if not a wholly satisfactory race. Though it may be a case of appearing unsatisfactory because MM was so much better than the field
Who’d have thought it so soon after the top-notch triumvirate of MF AZ and WC
Fortunate or what?
Although for the best part of his career Moscow Flyer spent his career beating monkees. When it came to the big one though he raced against some more than handy horses.
Trying to compare him to Master Minded is enough to give anone a sore head but his defeat of Tidal Bay really sealed it for me. Tidal Bay ran well and he is a bloody good horse but couln’t live with him.
If Master Minded wins all his races this season as easy as he won the Tingle Creek I don’t think any of us will even contemplate saying we have seen better……….Given time he could become a legend something no other 2 miler has really achieved;
Good to see you take what must have been desperately disappointing in good part Darren,a bit of an anti climax for you all.
Well, when he fell, I was in bits. We just didn’t expect it. I’d spent quite a bit of time in the parade ring talking to Jamie about how the race would pan out, and because Flipper is such a good jumper, I don’t think it ever crossed our minds that he wouldn’t get further than the first. Probably the most difficult bit was trying to show the media after the race that I wasn’t upset, as I had to let them know the horse was OK.
I will hazard a guess that it may have been Lesley Graham interviewing for Channel 4?
No, it wasn’t Lesley Graham. This was some blonde haired lass who I’ve never seen before. To be honest, there seemed to be quite a lot of media people flying around, but this one just saw my badge and headed in my direction. She had a microphone, but I can’t recall a camera, so maybe she was radio.
Darren – AngloGerman
________________________________________‘The Hungarian’s going hell for leather’ – Jim McGrath
I have a theory about Master Minded I think he’s a horse who will struggle on Good ground. For that reason I don’t think the Champion Chase is a penalty kick.
His best performance came at Cheltenham when it was a test of stamina and slow ground, that day he was awesome. Yesterdays conditions were quicker a whilst yes he won well he wouldn’t have been a million miles in front of Twist Magic had he remained on his feet and he wasn’t a million miles ahead of Takeroc and Tidal Bay. On better ground at Aintree a lot of people blamed the trip but I didn’t think he was ever really going not like he was at cheltenham.
Soft ground he’ll win the Champion Chase easily (acts of god permitting) but if its good ground I reckon something could turn him over ….. just don’t ask me what lol.
Fists, if you seriously think that yesterday’s race provided conclusive proof that Master Minded is a superior 2-miler to Moscow Flyer, then I can only imagine that you have been on the bongo-bongo juice for the last 18 hours.
Much as Master Minded is a very, very high-class chaser, and much as he is certainly within hailing distance of Moscow Flyer on form, the only thing the Tingle Creek proved is that Tidal Bay – as was suspected by some from the outset – is not a two-mile chaser, and needs a trip to show his form.
You got me wrong mate. No way on Gods earth am I saying that. I wish Moscow Flyer was around to make a race of it.
Master Minded has a long way to go before you can start comparing him that is what I am saying………..If he goes around unchallenged for the next 2 seasons then people will start saying he’s the greatest of all time…I however am not people and at this point have very little to say one way or another……………unlike you ya mofo
On achievement alone, Master Minded has some way to go to equal Moscow Flyer, but as Tony McCoy commented, this may only be a matter of time. On raw ability however, Master Minded is definitely up there with most of the two mile greats – in my opinion.
Most people seem to wax lyrical about Moscow Flyer, as if he had no equal over two miles. Nonsense, I say. Badsworth Boy and Flyingbolt (for example ) would have given him more than something to think about, that is for sure.
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I haven’t seen McCoy’s interview, but if the sentiments were that MM is the more talented horse [compared with Moscow Flyer], then he’s probably right IMO, though he has yet to physically prove it by running to a higher mark. Unfortunately, he may never get the chance to do so if he only has the likes of Takeroc to beat for the rest of his career.
I’m not interested in Twist Magic’s run, personally. He travels through most of his races like a 170 horse, but he has a gaping hole in him and would have folded into third at best IMO.
He’s run to 186 Friggo – not certain what Moscow ran to but I think it was the low 180’s since one of the big firms offered odds on a horse equalling Dessies 186 OR at any point last season
He has got to be up there "H" but like you I reckon I have seen better…….. I know you loved old Flyingolt but surely he was a far better horse at 3 miles than he was at 2
Badsworth Boy did it a lot easier than Moscow Flyer ever did and Dunkirk would have been so far ahead two out they would all have just all given up…no horse I have ever seen could jump a fence as fast as him..he truly was a 186 horse, something Master Minded can perhaps and could surpass by some way. That is as long as PN doesn’t have any silly blood rushes to his head and send him for the Champion Hurdle or has some other stupid whim.
I’m glad we have him and hope he wins 4 QMCC’s and we all live to see it.
He made a complete nonsense of a very good horse yesterday and despite someone saying he needs the trip was a very good 2 mile Arkle winner and as good as naything else around. Master Minded is a very special horse and if he goes the right way we wont be mentioning MF or BB in the same breath as him.I’m going to put my hands up and say I can’t put my finger on the tone of your post, Martin, but I do hope against hope that you’re not telling me Master Minded has actually run to 186.
I think if you want to you can make the ratings and runs say what you want.
Even accounting for VPU being a poor Champion Chase winner Master Minded was good value for at least another 7 or 8 lengths on top of the official distance.
I can tell you that there is nothing Master Minded has done that is the equal of Desert Orchid at his best, if that’s any help.
He’s run to 186 Friggo – not certain what Moscow ran to but I think it was the low 180’s since one of the big firms offered odds on a horse equalling Dessies 186 OR at any point last season
Master Minded emphatically did not run to 186, Martin. That OR was complete guesswork on the part of the official handicapper, and cannot be substantiated on any known form.
Here’s how it works for Phil Smith:
VPU wins a woefully sub-standard Champion Chase, but because it’s the Champion Chase, the handicapper feels compelled to award him a 169 rating – despite the fact that the actual form displayed is several pounds below that.
The official handicapper can’t be seen to look like an ar*se, so instead of revising VPU’s mark downwards to something more realistic following his cuffing by MM in the Game Spirit, he leaves him on the same mark, and (rightly) hikes Master Minded’s rating.
When Master Minded hammers VPU out of sight at Cheltenham, the official handicapper (again, not wanting to look like an ar*se for awarding VPU a patently inflated mark for his Champion Chase) decides he has to hike Master Minded into the mid-180’s – he needs to, in order to prop-up his original mark for VPU. He does this despite the fact that there were holes in the form of every one of VPU, Twist Magic and Tamaribleu going in the Champion Chase.
The OR of 186 cannot be substantiated on any relevant or solid piece of form, and was awarded for no better reason than Smith made a horlicks of rating the previous season’s Champion Chase.
Interestingly, Timeform, who are often accused of inflating a horse’s true ability vis – a – vis their rating system, had Master Minded on a rating of 179 (before yesterday’s race), as opposed to his official rating of 186.
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That’s becuase Timeform never rated Voy Por Ustedes any more than 164 over 2 miles, Himself. They perhaps came in for criticism at the time, but last year’s Champion Chase could act as a justification i.e. perhaps we didn’t actually see a five year old that’s as good as Dessie. (BTW, nowadays it is almost always the official marks that are overstated compared to Timeform’s at the top level, see Snoopy Loopy, Voy Por Ustedes, Twist Magic etc.).
Edit: Grass’ assessment is pretty much spot-on (although as I’ve stated before, VPU apparently wasn’t the main reason for the 186 rating).
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