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Since 2000 the lowest rating for the Arc is 122.75 in 2004.
In the same period the rating of the Champion Stakes has only exceeded that lowest Arc rating on 2 occasions, in 2000 when Kalanisi beat Montjeu 124.25 and last year when Cirrus des Aigles (inelligible to run in the Arc) beat So You Think 125.50.
Irrelevant. No one is saying the Champion is the better race.
So all that PC has written you must also regard as irrelevant as well then? I was merely adding some figures to the point he had made which I am sure he probably found to have some relevance.
And well done you for coming up with the info to support whatever that point was.
"this perfect mix of poetry and destruction, this glory of rhythm, power and majesty: the undisputed champion of the world!!!"
Sir Henry Cecil’s Frankel will hopefully make sure that The Champion Stakes again has a winner more than worthy of its illustrious title.
You do have a point. Should Frankel be triumphant in the Champion Stakes, maybe his name will rekindle very strong interest into the race and help boost it into an ultra-hot contest as prestigious as the Arc once he retires
Since 2000 the lowest rating for the Arc is 122.75 in 2004.
In the same period the rating of the Champion Stakes has only exceeded that lowest Arc rating on 2 occasions, in 2000 when Kalanisi beat Montjeu 124.25 and last year when Cirrus des Aigles (inelligible to run in the Arc) beat So You Think 125.50.
Unfortunately whatever history the Champion Stakes had has been forsaken by moving it to a different racecourse, now it has a history of 1 year.
…And a history 1 that says it was a better reace than the Arc!
You haven’t proven beyond reasonable doubt.
You’re the only one who wants me to prove it "beyond reasonable doubt" J17.
I’m satisfied just knowing Frankel is the Greatest, I don’t need or want to prove it to anyone else.If i were walking on a bridge with TAPK, and he jumped in the river, i wouldn’t be suprised. TAPK seems like an interesting and whacky character, with some excellent points, and some … i will dismiss. Yet i fail to see what TAPK has to with this and what this is supposed to change?
All you’re doing is moving further clear of what we are debating.
You "fail to see" that TAPK was the first to give a "difinitive" and "absolute" about Frankel being "without doubt the Greatest horse of all time" why didn’t you go after him J17?
If you create a thesis, and don’t provide reasoning, expect to be called out. Deal with it.
"Create a thesis"? Who’s trying to "create a thesis"? This isn’t a university!
Can we please just laugh it off and forget about it mate?
lol i will take what you say in other threads on the merit of the content. I think you’ve dug yourself a ludicrious hole in this thread and you’ve reached a point your completely evading the topic and getting defensive.
I hope I don’t have to suffer your persistent questioning on other threads J17.
However, this doesn’t mean i am going to dismiss what you say elsewhere, and still expect to read many useful and interesting posts from you in the future.
I’ll try and treat anything you say in future with the respect it deserves J17.
Value Is EverythingSince 2000 the lowest rating for the Arc is 122.75 in 2004.
In the same period the rating of the Champion Stakes has only exceeded that lowest Arc rating on 2 occasions, in 2000 when Kalanisi beat Montjeu 124.25 and last year when Cirrus des Aigles (inelligible to run in the Arc) beat So You Think 125.50.
Unfortunately whatever history the Champion Stakes had has been forsaken by moving it to a different racecourse, now it has a history of 1 year.
…And a history 1 that says it was a better reace than the Arc!
Not really KD, the Arc last year was 126.25. The point is that the Champion at its best has seldom been better than the Arc at its worst.
By changing the terms of the Champion Stakes from 10f Across the Flat to 1m2f at Aacot any rich history the race had, which has been lauded by some of the posters in this debate is hollow. There is a possibility that the Champion Stakes will attain a higher reputation over the coming years, but there is also a very real possibility that the course’s propensity to offer desperate ground in mid-October will not help to establish it as a fair test for the best flat racehorses.
A very good article on Frankel in the Post today by the brilliant Lee Mottershead has restored my sanity thank god.
I have found it hard reading the posts of some on here I have to say.
A 60% increase in the gate at York on Juddmonte day compared to a 10-15% drop on the other days makes me think that there are a few out there that think like me.
Also the late 50something lady from West Sussex who, although only being an occasional racegoer, talks of "his beauty as he seems to float over the ground". As Lee says her words were "the best possible antidote to cynicism but they merely reinforced the impression that York’s attendance figures had made".
That’s more like it!
"this perfect mix of poetry and destruction, this glory of rhythm, power and majesty: the undisputed champion of the world!!!"
^…you mean we drove you mad…? I thought as much…
I promise not to offend again on this matter…
..peace
^…you mean we drove you mad…? I thought as much…
I promise not to offend again on this matter…
..peace"this perfect mix of poetry and destruction, this glory of rhythm, power and majesty: the undisputed champion of the world!!!"
The Arc has a distinguished history.
Quality of the Newmarket Champion Stakes was on a downward trend. I think there is every indication the Ascot Champion Stakes will be a much better quality race.Danedream may have been a slightly better quality winner of the Arc than Cirrus Des Aigles, but the over all quality of the two races was very similar. With So You Think and Snow Fairy close up in both.
Value Is EverythingClaiming that Ribot was British Bred is somewhat tenuous. He was bred by Federico Tesio from 2 Italian bred horses but foaled at the National Stud. He is only "British" bred because Tesio had sent Romanella to be covered after foaling.
By that sort of logic, Rudyard Kipling would be Indian bred.Ok, foaled in GB.
You will find that his ancestral line has a somewhat predominately British bias.
Gambling Only Pays When You're Winning
You also appear selective in terms of accepting the views of racing professionals. For instance it is acceptable in your eyes to dismiss the words of John Hislop to suit your argument, and yet hang a lot of your argument that Frankel is superior to Brigadier Gerard on the opinions of Joe Mercer.
What has John Hislop said about Frankel? To "dismiss the words" you’ve got to know what he said.
So how can I do so to "suit my arguement"?I don’t "hang a lot of my arguement" on what Joe Mercer says, just mentioned it because it might be interesting.
John Hislop, as you should know, died before Frankel was the remotest glint in his grandmother’s eye. My mention of Hislop referred back to a previous Frankel thread where we discussed Brigadier Gerard’s career record and the sporting gesture by connections to race in the 1972 King George. As I recall you dismissed some of my direct Hislop quotes because he "was the owner" and "well he would say that". So I was fascinated to learn that as far as you are concerned when Joe Mercer makes a comment it must be taken as gospel (and since your comment it now seems that it was in any case a misrepresentation of Mercer’s words).
Of course John Hislop was regarded in his day as not only one of the finest amateur jockeys ever to ride on the flat, but also a breeder with expert knowledge of family lines. In addition to all of that he was a highly regarded racing journalist whose books were "treasured by all true racing people".
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