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I find it astonishing that some people are still questioning the brilliance of Frankel. I put forward the great Tudor Minstrel as an example of a horse that never won beyond a mile (failed to stay in The Derby ), yet is rightly revered by many racing experts as a "great" horse.
It seems that no matter which horse comes along and wins multiple Group 1 races, there will always be those smart arses who just need to crab that partcicular horse’s achievements.
I have seen and heard it all with Nijinsky ( "beat nothing" they said ), Shergar ("beat glorified handicappers") El Gran Senor ( didn’t truly stay a mile and a half
), Sea The Stars ( "overrated… beat non stayers and didn’t win by far " )…I’ve even had my ear nipped by the some annoying iconoclasts about how the "great" Arkle "wasn’t as good as everyone says he was"
Behave yourselves, for goodness sake ! Now it’s Frankel’s turn to feel their negative vibes. I’ll say it again; whether or not he wins any races beyond a mile is totally irrelevant. He already is a great miler – just as sprinters, Abernant and Dayjur achieved greatness by virtue of their sprinting exploits.
It may well be that Sir Henry Cecil steps Frankel up in trip next season; he has given every indication that he will. Frankel, I’m sure, like Brigadier Gerard before him, will strengthen and grow as a 4 yr old – his stamina levels will increase and he ( hopefully ) will have learned to settle more during races. I’m also sure that 10f will prove no problem to the colt.
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BTW Ginger, SYT NEVER won a G1 in Oz over a mile. His form over that distance is not in the same ball park as Frankel’s. He ran 5th in the 2000 G equivalent (Caulfield G) behind SSB of all horses. He also ran 2nd in a Hcp G1 2 weeks after his 1st Cox Plate win. Nothing to campare to Frankel’s 2000G win nor his destruction of CC…
Marbine,
I said SYT had "good form" not Group 1 form at a mile. However, he did win a Group 2 at 7f and Group 1 at 1m1f. The way he went clear of his field in the Prince Of Wales (1m2f) before weakening late – also suggests he’d be fully effective at a mile.
Not that it will be good enough to beat an in form Frankel. As it stands So You Think’s form at 1m2f is not as good as Frankel’s mile form.
My post was in response to Andyod saying Sir Henry was shirking the issue of upping Frankel’s trip. If anyone says that then they must be consistent and say AOB is shirking dropping So You Think.
Value Is Everythinggoobly goop. Because I don’t have the need to fall down and kiss the shoes of Sir Henry does not mean anything except I don’t feel that need. I also don’t feel the need to see the world from the gentlemans club where the "far east" apparently still has real connotations.
Don’t know what the reference to the American Steptoe And Son is for? Goobly Goop?
Everyone should judge whatever anyone says or does in the same way, no matter who it comes from. Whether it be Sir Henry, Gerry Adams, Her Majesty The Queen or Mary Mcaleese.
Your objection to the words "far east" is crazy. I’m not harping back to the British Empire. Thankfully that is a bygone era. I just used those words because people would know where I was talking about without needing to mention the two coutries.
Value Is Everything.However I believe he came over to get group one victories over the classic distances, not for goodness sake over a mile./quote]
Since when apart from in France is 1 mile 2 a classic distance? I thought a mile WAS a classic distance Andy? Are not the English and IRISH 2,000 Guineas run over that trip?
Sir Vincent was a legend. He and his horses are why I got into racing. I wonder what HE would make of your comments regarding Sir Henry?
"this perfect mix of poetry and destruction, this glory of rhythm, power and majesty: the undisputed champion of the world!!!"
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To call Frankel a great miler is one thing. Great milers can be great but not legend or immortal. And even the greatest miler label is preposterous. Beating an over the top CC in a 4 horse race is the yardstick now for greatest ever?
Secretariat after his two year old season was foretold to be the second coming. He went out and proved it. Frankel seems now to be in the same boat in his 3 year old year. He will have to prove it. Timeforms do not make legends. Great races and great seasons under adversity do.Henry Cecil is legend himself but it’s been pointed out already how he has made this same claim at least twice before. How the man even walks is a mystery in itself with so many noses firmly imbedded where the sun don’t shine.
Trainers are biased. They say alot of things. Recently Nick Zito made the proclamation that Dialed In was a "Gift from God". He took millions of $$ from the adoring bandwagon he started before the smoke cleared and his Gift from God proved to be fraud. Secretariat was a Gift from God.Right now I can put Sidney’s Candy in a match race at one mile against your Frankel and will bet SC with no hesitation. Furthermore, Put Goldikove in there and she will most likely sweep right past both. So even greatest miler is in doubt. To proclaim anything more is silly. Go out and prove it.
Come out of your comfort zone and claim the greatness if you have it in you. Otherwise continue all the talk because thats all it would be. Recently you have had 3 or 4 so called legends that all put together have less starts than one genuine American Superstar.
Talk is cheap Just keeping it real. It’s what I do
I wasnt suggesting Frankel wasnt an all time great miler – i wrote in my post that he was but nobody can justifyably say he is one of the Top 5 All Time Great Flat Horses based on what hes achieved so far. Whatever the various merits of form in different classic years, to be able to win Group 1’s over 1m, 1m 2f and 1m 4f takes a special horse and to do it consistently over a career however long that career may be marks out a horse as a true Champion.
Frankel has now proved himself a true champion at a mile but he is only setting out on the path to prove his true greatness and it will be by the end of his 4yr old career that we can judge if he is possibly one of the elite all time greats
For my money i believe he will prove to be unbeatable at any distance and will prove to be an all time great but he is some way off from being there yet
It doesn’t really matter what distances a horse wins over or for how long its campaigned to be a true great. It just needs enough time to show how much superior he/she is to its contemporaries. If we take Timeform rating of 140+ as our guide and ignoring Windy City whose 2 tear-old rating appears to be an anomaly.
One, Shergar (140), never won a pattern race at less than 10F, in fact all his top level wins were at 12F, but he was great. Dubai Millennium (140) never won beyond 10F, Tudor Minstrel (144) never won beyond a mile, all of Abernant’s (142) wins were at 5-6F, he was deafeated 3 times in 17 race career one of those defeats was his only try at a mile when runner-up in the 2000 Guineas. Oh and both Tudor Minstrel and Abernant were sons of Derby winner Owen Tudor. As I pointed out on a previous post The Brigs King George was possibly the weakest ever renewal, The Brig apart.
As for longevity, Sea Bird, Tudor Minstrel, Dancing Brave, Sea The Stars, Shergar and Vaguely Noble were retired after 3 year-old campaign, that’s more than half of all "great" horses didn’t run at 4.
Frankel still has time all being well next season to gain G1 wins over further than a mile. I for one think he will be unbeatable over 8-10F next year, nevertheless after following racing for nearly 40 years, I regard Frankel as the best horse I’ve ever seen over any distance.
Right now I can put Sidney’s Candy in a match race at one mile against your Frankel and will bet SC with no hesitation. Furthermore, Put Goldikove in there and she will most likely sweep right past both. So even greatest miler is in doubt. To proclaim anything more is silly. Go out and prove it.
Come out of your comfort zone and claim the greatness if you have it in you. Otherwise continue all the talk because thats all it would be. Recently you have had 3 or 4 so called legends that all put together have less starts than one genuine American Superstar.
Talk is cheap Just keeping it real. It’s what I do
Get real ! Sidney’s Candy is a good horse but not in Frankel’s class. Fact ! He wouldn’t get Frankel out of second gear. On current Timeform ratings, Sidney’s Candy has 16 pounds to find on Frankel !
SC has competed in seven mile races – 2 on synthetic, 1 on dirt, and 4 on turf.
Of the four he has contested on turf, he has won two.
He has also tried to win over 9 and 10 furlongs, and both times he has been defeated – albeit that one of those was on "sloppy" ground.
In short, and to use American phraseology, Sydney’s Candy wouldn’t blow smoke up Frankel’s ass.
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Himself, you seem to hang all on Timeforms and Sir Henry. If you think you can step with Sid, bring it. Frankel canot step early with him regardless of your numbers. And as I said, Goldikova would blow past them both.
FYI, Dr. Fager is the best miler ever produced although he won at much longer distances too. He would spot your Frankel 10lbs and beat him by 10! FACT! So get over the all time BS sir. I’m from Missouri, show me
This is really getting a tad embarrassing now,if Frankel was own by say Coolmore and trained at Ballydoyle I doubt very much the same people would waxing lyrically about him.
I found it a cop out that they are ducking the race at York the Irish Champion stakes and even the Breeders cup,Frankel will get 10 furlongs no problem he is bred for it he has more stamina in his pedigree than his half brother bullet train,as Galileo is a far stronger stamina influence than Saddler’s wells every was.
Juddmonte are known for ducking a challenge,Workforce was due his 1st run in Ireland they ducked that and I remember Zofonic being pulled out of the ST James palace stakes at Ascot when he was due to take on Kingmambo as the grd they reckoned was to soft but they had no problem him taking his chance in the sussex stakes on grd that was softer
I dont get why they have decided to wait for Ascot when winning that race proves nothing.
Im a fan of Cecil always have been from back in his early days when he took over from his father in law Noel Murless,but I do think the fear of Frankel being beat at either York or over in Ireland is the reason there going to Ascot.
This is really getting a tad embarrassing now,if Frankel was own by say Coolmore and trained at Ballydoyle I doubt very much the same people would waxing lyrically about him.
I found it a cop out that they are ducking the race at York the Irish Champion stakes and even the Breeders cup,Frankel will get 10 furlongs no problem he is bred for it he has more stamina in his pedigree than his half brother bullet train,as Galileo is a far stronger stamina influence than Saddler’s wells every was.
Juddmonte are known for ducking a challenge,Workforce was due his 1st run in Ireland they ducked that and I remember Zofonic being pulled out of the ST James palace stakes at Ascot when he was due to take on Kingmambo as the grd they reckoned was to soft but they had no problem him taking his chance in the sussex stakes on grd that was softer
I dont get why they have decided to wait for Ascot when winning that race proves nothing.
Im a fan of Cecil always have been from back in his early days when he took over from his father in law Noel Murless,but I do think the fear of Frankel being beat at either York or over in Ireland is the reason there going to Ascot.
I found it a cop out that they are ducking the race at York the Irish Champion stakes and even the Breeders cup,Frankel will get 10 furlongs no problem
If it had been announced that Frankel was to retire at the end of his 3yo career I could just about entertain your notion that it would be a "cop out" to forsake the 10f G1s for the ‘easy’ option of the QE2
As it is, we know that Frankel is to be kept in training as a 4yo, so why on earth should connections be concerned with 10f this season? We have that oh-so-intriguing prospect to look forward to next year
If Goldikova turns up in the QE2 – as seems quite likely – along with Canford Cliffs and Frankel, that will truly be a race to savour, and should determine once and for all just how ‘great’ a 3yo Frankel is. Personally I’d much rather watch that than a possibly premature venture into 10f territory
I’d venture that Cecil and Abdulla believe (correctly IMO) that they have in Frankel something of an extremely talented baby who needs to be given time to mature into the finished article. With any luck next year we should see a thoroughly mentally-rounded individual to go with the exceptional athletic talent
And isn’t that prospect something to warm the cockles of the over-wintering Flattie?
Prix Ganay
Prince of Wales’s
Eclipse
International
Champion
Breeders Cup ClassicHowzat
Though should they decide to attempt a mop-up of the all-aged 8f G1s instead I’ll be equally entertained
Himself, you seem to hang all on Timeforms and Sir Henry. If you think you can step with Sid, bring it. Frankel canot step early with him regardless of your numbers. And as I said, Goldikova would blow past them both.
FYI, Dr. Fager is the best miler ever produced although he won at much longer distances too. He would spot your Frankel 10lbs and beat him by 10! FACT! So get over the all time BS sir. I’m from Missouri, show me
Lastword, your posts are getting more and more stupid, how can anyone give your statements any serious consideration.
Dr. Fager was undoubtedly an outstanding horse, and if you think he was better than Frankel, well that’s fine we’ll agree to disagree, but saying he he’s 10lb and 10L better than Frankel is just plain ludicrous. As you say "keep it real". Your statements make Harry Potter look like a documentary.
Frankel will line up for the QEII in October. I reckon the connections of Canford Cliffs and Goldikova will duck out of that one – opting instead to send their horse(s)to Churchill Downs for the Breeders Cup turf mile a fortnight later.
Would they really want to give their horse a hard race against Frankel at Ascot, considering the proximity of their preferred target in the US ? Doubt it.
As for Frankel stepping up in distance to take on So You Think – well, if Aidan O’Brien thinks his colt has the speed to beat the Cecil star, he too has the option of stepping his colt back in distance and running him in the QEII. But he won’t; he’s not that daft – he knows full well that Frankel would blow So You Think out the water.
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Lastword
i’ve read a lot of this thread so i don’t know if this has been mentioned
CC was not spotting 8lb to Frankel, its called weight for age, because Frankel is not yet a fully grown horse. If we didn’t have wfa then most of these clashes would not take place as trainers would never run their 3yo against mature horses
CC is hardly "over the top" is he? that was just his 3rd run of the season
To suggest CC is over the top when you bang on about our horses being lightly raced is a bit silly
The fact that you are saying over the top about CC shows me you have a negative bias against Frankel, that makes your arguments a little lightweight/slanted tbh.
Frankel is only 3, and at his stage of career he has done all and more that can be expected of a really good horse. You talk as if he has done all his running, he still has many race days to prove his full worth, which we haven’t seen yet. We got a glimpse of what he is really capable of at Goodwood, where for once, his energy was distributed in a more sensible way.
You appear to rate Goldoikova, well CC won with head in chest against her, and Frankel hammered CC. So again your criticism of Frankel looks slanted. If you rate G, then you must rate Frankel.
Lastword – can you offer a single shred of evidence to back your view that Dr Fager could beat Frankel by 10 lengths giving him ten pounds. Thats correct, I am asking for a bit of evidence for once. Please don’t respond with the normal nonsense i.e. nicknames, your alleged achievements, etc etc, just supporting evidence for once, please
FYI, Dr. Fager is the best miler ever produced although he won at much longer distances too. He would spot your Frankel 10lbs and beat him by 10! FACT!
No, that’s not a fact, that’s merely YOUR opinion! FACT!
Maybe when you realise the difference between an opinion and a fact, people will start taking you seriously. Till then…
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First off i’m not here to win any popularity contests nor do I care who takes me seriously or not. I’m here only to keep it real. It’s what I do and have been doing all along. I am confident in what I know based on 40 + years and am still well into the black many times over.
Now I can say my so called opinion on Dr. Fager is no less than YOUR (meaning you all) opinion on Frankel. The difference being the late great Dr. Fager actually HAS a record where as Frankel has only his precious Timeforms lol.
Whoever asked for proof about Dr. Fager I suggest they do their own homework. Not only was he a 4 time champion in one year, he broke track and world records while giving signifigant weight. Dr.Fager also went out of his element and took on champions such as Damascus and Buckpasser. He was also grass champion as well. He was sometimes ganged up on by two and even three rabbit’s in one race. The only way to beat him besides the weight. He was 2-2 against Damascus, a horse that would obliterate Frankel and Damascus used rabbit’s in both his wins.
For whoever wrote about the weight scale, I am of course well aware of weight for age. I defended the legendary Rachel Alexandra when her critics balked at her recieving weight as a 3 year old filly against older colts…BUT..She was a filly and as great as she was, nobody was saying what you all are about Frankel. So when the second coming has to take 8lbs and given a 3 length cushion is the race itself, I am not saying he doesn’t deserve it. I am saying there should be no coronation off such circumstances.
Now for whoever asked for proof on Dr. Fager spotting 10 lbs and beating Frankel by 10 lengths, I must say we are all guilty of hyperbole. Especially in a heated discussion on horses and especially when one is outnumbered and needs to get a point across. Hyperbole is Frankel’s middle name at this time. And maybe I was guilty of the same making the 10 and 10 statement. However, truth be told, Dr. Fager is beyond hyperbole. I stand by the statement but in the spirit of compromise just lets say Dr. Fager would win without breaking a sweat against the likes of Frankel.
Now for those accusing me of a bias against a potential superhorse I say this. There is absoloutly no bias against the horse. Same with Zenyatta for which I was accused of the same. It’s their connections and mostly the bandwagoners that are quick to make proclamations without test that I have a problem with. The horse does what he is asked, like Zenyatta. I sincerly hope he will prove me wrong as I did with her. The only way is on the racetrack. In the words of a good country song, Thats my story and i’m stickin to it
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