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Dear Gingertipster,Sitting in the smoking room of the gentlemans club in downtown London.Where in the name of the non Brits is the far east? Beyond the Empire I presume.Chicago is the far east to me.
There no doubt Frankel is a very good horse but for me he is no better than ROG,Miesque or Zizal 3 of the very best milers every to grace The European scene in the last 30 yrs.
I would like to see him at York or even to go for the Irish champion stakes but I doubt it,he has very little to prove going for the QE11
If he was trained by any other trainer he would not be getting the plaudits he was dont get me wrong im a great fan of Henry Cecil,but I also remember him calling Bosra Sham and Sabrehill the best horses he had trained back in 97 and 93.
He is being wrapped in cotton wool he has only had 4 races you look back on other great champions in there 3yr old careers and they where well raced.
Especially if comes oct and the grd is heavy at Ascot then he surly he would be be risked.
He’s run enough to prove in my mind he’s the greatest miler I’ve ever seen!
I would personally put Rock and Miesque about on par with Canford Cliffs and Goldikova, very,very good but not in same league as Frankel. Zilzal is different he would be one of the elite miler’s I’ve seen, about same as Kris, Irish River and Northjet at his best, but I’d still have them a good few pounds below Frankel. I know not everyone will agree but that’s my opinion.
Nice to see newyork in general agreement with my views on Frankel.A very good miler but greatness has to be earned.
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I’d say that was just them doing their bit for racing – you only need to look at the Grand National and the furore with the tarpaulins and the week long debate afterwards and compare it to the old reaction (when parts of the fence were dolled off), you still had the tarpaulins and the dead horses but it wasn’t shoved down your throat.
Is the best way of "doing their bit for racing" to treat their viewers like children? Not everyone who watches C4 Racing is some kind of innocent baby who’s been protected from the facts of death, and needs to have mummy’s hands over the eyes every time something unpleasant happens on screen. In fact, few if any in C4’s audience needs protecting in this way, and to broadcast in a manner acceptable to this tiny minority is unprofessional.
As far as I recall, the "old reaction" of the public to those black tarpaulins was to be sickened, as we all are, but to accept it as part of the danger of the sport. The kid-glove nannying has changed that response to anger about things which the audience can no longer see, but is all too ready to imagine.
It is dishonest, bad reporting which makes many people imagine that far worse things are happening – horses screaming in pain, spouting blood, bones sticking out of their flesh and all the rest of it – than in fact is the case. Animal welfare has never been better than it is now.
We’re swallowing the Animal Aid bait if we believe this particular form of lying is either desirable or necessary – let alone remotely helpful to Racing’s image.
The QE II has been penciled in as the next objective for Frankel. The world knows it, lets see how many take him on, I suspect less that 6. I just want Goldikova to turn up, somehow I doubt it after the mauling Frankel gave to Rajsaman.
Winning a 4th Breeders Cup Mile will be the main target for Goldikova and has probably always been the main target from the start of the season so don’t see the point in her having a hard race chasing Frankel so close to that event.
Blackbeard to conquer the World
Nice to see newyork in general agreement with my views on Frankel.A very good miler but greatness has to be earned.
Yes – must be nice to be getting support from your American friends.
Ignoring the vitriol from those with an axe to grind against Henry and all things English I would like to concentrate on Mr Segal’s article this morning. Bless him – at the start of the season he opposed Frankel in the Guineas and said the horse he was most looking forward to seeing was So You Think
So I Think he must be feeling a bit foolish.He states that Frankel had a conditioning edge in the 2,000 – was Frankel the only horse allowed to have a prep run? That’s really unfair. Oh no hang on – the second and third both had prep runs but were still beaten out of sight. Didn’t Guineas winners used to eschew trials anyway? What did Jessica Harrington say about Pathfork before the race? And M al Zarooni? How far were they beaten? Was it REALLY only conditioning that had them 30 odd lengths behind? Blimey they sound less fit than me. Surely the least one can expect of horses contesting a classic is that they are reasonably fit?
The St James – can I for arguements sake say he COULD be right? Lets ignore what his trainer said after. On paper Frankel scrambled home. It was definitely his least impressive performance. To the naked eye it looked like he was tiring. We COULD argue that he was sent on too early but he did manage to gallop for a full 8 furlongs at Newmarket so why couldnt he manage 5 at Ascot? Ok he had a bad day at the office and Queally wasnt to blame. He still won. Interesting also that none of the vanquished that day wanted to reoppose at Goodwood.
Many thought that was a sign that the Frankel bubble was about to burst. That his form was regressing. Then we get Goodwood.
Tom Segal says that CC was clearly well below form, Richard Hannon agrees. Freddie Head says that Frankel had the race fall his way. It was a glorified time trial. Ok well what actually happened in the race?
The gates opened, nobody wanted to go on. Everyone wanted to force TQ’s hand. Why? AH – the chink in Frankel’s armour. HE DOESNT SETTLE. Let him HAVE to make the running and he will expend all his energies fighting TQ and be a sitting duck for the rest. If you pause the race after a furlong and asked connections how the race is going Hannon would be saying "perfect – this is EXACTLY what we wanted! We are right behind him just where we want to be." Head would be saying the same. If we are good enough we can win. Remember Rajsaman was beaten only a length the previous time against Goldikova. The problem – Frankel settles damn and blast him. That final chick has been repaired and they are now racing against a horse with no achilles heel.
The rest is history. Frankel did what he always does and took them all completely out of their comfort zones. CC does not start drifting until he can’t go the pace in the final furlong. Is it REALLY coincidence that the only times he has drifted has been when he has lost? He beats RDLP 2 lengths less than he did at Ascot having drifted. Tom Queally only really asks his horse to go and win the race a furlong and a half out – heaven knows what the margin may have been had he gone a furlong earlier! He wasnt stopping at the line. It is no good complaining afterward that the race fell into Frankel’s lap when the tactics employed were EXACTLY what they all wanted.
Listen I am not bothered if people don’t want to call him the greatest yet – the fact that it is even up for discussion is good enough for me. It’s nice that the groom who looked after Brigadier Gerard has decided that this horse COULD just be the best since hers but the point is he isnt even finished yet. Connections have the bigger picture in mind and he WILL run at other trips all being well before his career is finished. We must all, Tom Segal included, be patient and enjoy this horse while he is with us. 5 runs this year will only be 1 less than Sea The Stars and his 8 runs in total is already 1 more than Zarkava PLUS he stays in training next year!
A year from now when we are talking about 12 or 13 consecutive victories at different trips I am sure only the Americans and Andyod will be left to convince….and some people just aint for pleasin….
"this perfect mix of poetry and destruction, this glory of rhythm, power and majesty: the undisputed champion of the world!!!"
Nice to see newyork in general agreement with my views on Frankel.A very good miler but greatness has to be earned.
If Canford Cliffs and Goldikova have been acclaimed as great milers, which they undoubtedly are, then Frankel simply has to be a great, even already. No argument.
Goldicova gets beaten every year at the start of her racing season.No big deal.The jockey went back to the weigh room to put on two extra lbs.just in case.The BC is the one they aim at.What will Frankel prove by beating the same old,same old.Why not go for the Champion Stakes? And meet So You Think? Sir Henry where are your b***s?
Imagine not letting a Galileo race at a mile and two as a three year old .Incredible,unbelieveable,incomprehensible,unthinkable.
To help you Kris Diesis; The Racing Post did a survey a couple of years ago to establish the most influential person in racing for the twentieth century and the winner was …wait for it….VINCENT O’BRIEN the trainer.Not Henry not Andre not any of the others…followed by Lester Pigott.So all those notaries came third at best.…So all those notaries came third at best.
Cecil and Fabre are racehorse trainers, not lawyers.
Why not go for the Champion Stakes? And meet So You Think? Sir Henry where are your b***s?
Andyod,
So You Think has good form at a mile in Australia.
Is there any reason why you have not asked if AOB and Coolmore have not got the b***s to run So You Think in the QEII against Frankel?Ah yes, I know one very good reason you don’t ask that question.
They’re Irish.
Got those shamrock tinted specs on again?Could it be that if Sir Henry was an Irishman and trained in Ireland; you might feel differently about Frankel Mr A?
And if he were trained in the USA, came over and won the Sussex in the same manner; could it be Mr Lastword might feel differently about Frankel?
Value Is EverythingIt kills me that we have to say this again; Frankel is one of the great milers. But on the flat, the most competitive and prestigious distance is 10-12 furlongs; the Derby, the Arc, the Breeders Cup Classic, the American Triple Crown. If El Gran Senor had stayed at a mile would he be a great horse?
I hope Frankel goes on to prove himself a great, but he has to do it at 10-12 furlongsthe Derby, the Arc, the Breeders Cup Classic, the American Triple Crown.
Can we please get a grip. If you are saying that the great races are 10-12f, why are you including restricted races???
Derby & TC races are for 3yos only!! You only have to be the best of your generation to win those.
I could be real cruel and add the Arc is also resticted as it doesn’t allow geldings…
And the BCC is on dirt (generally)!!
Whether Frankel is an all time great is open to conjecture IMO but I’m not letting that stop me from enjoying his races.
BTW Ginger, SYT NEVER won a G1 in Oz over a mile. His form over that distance is not in the same ball park as Frankel’s. He ran 5th in the 2000 G equivalent (Caulfield G) behind SSB of all horses. He also ran 2nd in a Hcp G1 2 weeks after his 1st Cox Plate win. Nothing to campare to Frankel’s 2000G win nor his destruction of CC…
I wasnt suggesting Frankel wasnt an all time great miler – i wrote in my post that he was but nobody can justifyably say he is one of the Top 5 All Time Great Flat Horses based on what hes achieved so far. Whatever the various merits of form in different classic years, to be able to win Group 1’s over 1m, 1m 2f and 1m 4f takes a special horse and to do it consistently over a career however long that career may be marks out a horse as a true Champion.
Frankel has now proved himself a true champion at a mile but he is only setting out on the path to prove his true greatness and it will be by the end of his 4yr old career that we can judge if he is possibly one of the elite all time greats
For my money i believe he will prove to be unbeatable at any distance and will prove to be an all time great but he is some way off from being there yet
The fact that "they" are trainers did not help them in the least to win the ballot.As for So You Think I have no idea what race he will run in or whether he will race after the Juddmonte or return to Australia.I have no insight into his future.However I believe he came over to get group one victories over the classic distances, not for goodness sake over a mile.I also know that Ballydoyle never backs off a challenge.I would dearly like to see him and Frankel go against each other over a mile and more because I believe that Frankel,by Galileo will stay beyond a mile and it would be a wonderful race to have the sons of Coolmore sires battle it out.I would be rooting for Galileo.As for the ethnocentric goobly goop which some feel the need to use in their responses it is childish and sad.Because I don’t have the need to fall down and kiss the shoes of Sir Henry does not mean anything except I don’t feel that need.I also don’t feel the need to see the world from the gentlemans club where the "far east" apparently still has real connotations.
Enter Frankel in a handicap race carrying 140 ( ten stone?) with Canford Cliffs at 112 and Goldikova at 110?
The way Frankel finishes his races it’s hard to believe he can’t get another furlong or two at least. If fact I think I’ll start a new topic about that. You can never have too many topics about Frankel.
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