Home › Forums › Horse Racing › The Smug Henry
- This topic has 47 replies, 14 voices, and was last updated 12 years, 2 months ago by ivanjica.
-
AuthorPosts
-
July 30, 2011 at 18:19 #366578
It just goes to show how user friendly the format of the forum is, when someone of such minimal intelligence is able to work out how to post his rubbish.
AP
July 30, 2011 at 18:52 #366582AnonymousInactive- Total Posts 17716
Keep taking the pills mate !!
Have a lie down and call for nurse… whilst we call for
Matron
! I’m sorry, but this sad person’s
ad hominem
attacks on myself and others, his repetitive postings, plus his hyper ravings about American milers completely irrelevant to the debate – it’s not about Dr Fager or Secretariat or "what’s the best miler that ever lived?" or any such nonsense, but about whether Frankel’s standing amongst today’s crops can be questioned in the light of Wednesday’s demolition job – are beyond tedious.
He’s been treated with forbearance and courtesy by most posters (though not by me, true!) but surely enough is enough?
July 30, 2011 at 18:56 #366583Argumentum ad hominem was after the argument from authority the weakest of all arguments.I speak for all of the "ad hominem" if I may.I learned that in highschool logic I believe.That was many years ago.So perhaps it does not apply to modern sophists.
July 30, 2011 at 18:58 #366584AnonymousInactive- Total Posts 17716
Perhaps not my place to say as a newcomer, but internet trolls are generally uninformed and set on nothing but insult and disruption. While this chap ‘Lastword’ appears to have a healthy dose of stateside arrogance and the social skills of Ghengis Khan, it is difficult to contest that his replies are cogent and apparently heartfelt.
I do contest that. His responses are repetitive, circular, illiterate, illogical and
ad hominem
. And being "heartfelt" or passionate is no excuse. It only makes it worse, in fact. His argument amounts to
"I’m the greatest handicapper in the history of the world, and if you don’t shut up and agree with me you’re an idiotic Brit pinhead"
. If that’s cogent, then I’m Frankel’s lead horse.
Meanwhile, on a much more pleasant note, thank you
Hammy
for your enjoyable memories of
Diminuendo
and positive personal memories of her great trainer. They’ve done much (for me) to sweeten the sourness caused by the lastword Troll.
July 30, 2011 at 19:07 #366585I believe we shoud all hold our fire until Frankel does "it" on the world stage;BC or Arc.However it goes without saying he is the best miler in England or Ireland up to now.A tip of my hat to him.
July 30, 2011 at 19:21 #366586AnonymousInactive- Total Posts 17716
I believe we shoud all hold our fire until Frankel does "it" on the world stage;BC or Arc.
You mean, like we did with
Brigadier Gerard
, who never raced outside England? Or with
Zarkava
who never raced outside France? Or with
Secretariat
, who never raced outside … on second thoughts, scrap that last thought which will only trigger another Troll attack!
Where a horse races is irrelevant. Here we are talking about the style of its victories, about the impression it makes; and not about whether it takes in some tinpot, self-styled "world championship" race or other, whether at Ascot or Churchill Downs.
The
Sussex Stakes
, like the
2000 Guineas
and
St James’s Palace Stakes
, *is* the "world stage". It’s a very important Group 1, the most important mile race of the European summer, and it’s open to every horse in the world who’d like to try. Just because Dr Fager or Goldikova never ran in it, doth not diminish its golden glow.
July 30, 2011 at 19:23 #366587Henry has been ducking and dodging more than Frankel.By the way I think the issue of the greatest trainer has been settled by the acclaim of the public.And it was not Henry who won! But enough of that. By now this horse should have swept up at last two classics and a couple of other group one races as a three year old.He should be acclaimed the horse of the year and not just the miler of the year.Any horse who cannot win over the classic distance will be always suspect.Good maybe but basically a short runner.
Frankel, it seems would not have been eligible to run in the Oaks!!
Err, the last time I checked the 2000 Guineas is run over a classic distance. I I’ll be amazed if Frankel is not proclaimed "Horse of the Year", more than a chance he’ll be proclaimed the "Horse of the Century" (so far).July 30, 2011 at 19:23 #366588Thanks Pinza, (I have friends living in Pinza Close. )
I have nothing like the knowledge of racing that some of you guys have, but living here I’ve not surprisingly had quite a bit of contact with the sport.
For instance Dancing Brave gets mentioned a fair bit. I lost a wad on him at Epsom (And believe it or not I moved to Greville Starkey Avenue a couple of months later.)
Well he went to stud a few miles up the road at the Darley stud flagship stud farm Dalham Hall. I worked there on most of the new buildings as the arabs transformed the place. I’d see Dancing Brave every day. He was a bit of a lemon to be truthful and not an animal that filled the eye well. Another of my friends dad’s shoed the horses at Dalham Hall and he gave me a few of DB’s spent shoes as mementos. He wore a three quarter fore at that point.
The stallion list there was legendary. By far the most successful was a really spiteful little stallion called Shareef Dancer (If my memory isn’t getting mixed up.) He used to have to stand on a ramp to cover a mare he was that small. Others I can recall were Topville, a giant big horse, Adjal, and Reference Point. Sir Henry’s Indian Skimmer was a really sweet mare who spent her days in the paddocks there. I have good pictures in old print format of many of the ‘greats’, if I’m allowed to call them that.
…sorry for the waffling.
July 30, 2011 at 19:34 #366589At least (a)two classics and (b)a couple of Group One races for all age horses.Is that better?
July 30, 2011 at 19:38 #366592What is this poll of great trainers. I’ve just looked on Google, 1st list had Herietta Knight and Mick Channon in the top ten "EVER". No mention of Fabre, Mathet, Stoute, Hern. What a Pi$$ take.
July 30, 2011 at 19:39 #366593Two years for a trainer to teach a horse to settle. Give me a break.If they had tried to settle(jockey and trainer) him in his earlier races he would be going for the big competetive races by now instead of ducking them and using his speed to reclaim former glory for the trainer.He looked fully settled in his last race in my opinion.I am not buying the excuses from what I have seen.It’s all a cheap publicity stunt.
What a mean, dispirited person you sound Andy! This sounds personal to me. According to you Frankel is no good and neither is his trainer! You seem to have little respect for either. Pray god this isnt some pathetic anglo/irish thing????
"this perfect mix of poetry and destruction, this glory of rhythm, power and majesty: the undisputed champion of the world!!!"
July 30, 2011 at 19:50 #366594At least (a)two classics and (b)a couple of Group One races for all age horses.Is that better?
Well, he’s won 1 classic. The connections obviously though that Frankel was not ready for the step up to 12F at this stage of his career. Now he can’t run in everything, but the logical all age G1 he could have contested before the Sussex, were the Eclipse, July Cup, and King George. In which, by the way Khalid Abdullah had the runner up in all three so he had other able contenders.
I would think no trainers would prefer their horse to step up in trip at the top level against stronger older horses. In an interview after the St, James’s Palace, Henry said No, No, when Rishi asked him was a 6F horse, hence he arrived the logical answer the Sussex.
July 30, 2011 at 20:07 #366596Pinza times are changing. Your own back yard used to be good enough,but not any more.Even the great BG when he met the Derby winner was found wanting.Nothing like Epsom to separate the wheat from the chaff.Frankel ducked it lets be honest.Which was not fair to Galileo.I believe he would have had a second Derby winner had Sir Henry the fortitude to test both himself and the horse.You cannot pin the ‘Greatest " on a horse who ducked the Derby can you? Maybe great but not "the greatest".History will record that Sir Henry thought he would not win it.Which I suppose puts that argument to rest for all times.Pity.It is easy to say he is the best after I duck taking on the rest in the Derby.Or maybe he meant to say he is the best miler he ever saw?I don’t mind what one calls his horse as long as he can back it up. But to be the best in the world you must take on the world.That is if you want to prove it.
July 30, 2011 at 20:10 #366597AnonymousInactive- Total Posts 438
There’s nothing stopping anyone who wants to take on Frankel making the trip to Ascot.
July 30, 2011 at 20:19 #366599How can we truly say after a race, that the horse who has finishes second or even third is the one "great" horse in the race? – When he/she has put up a rating inferior to the winner and is always going to be inferior to a winner who is not considered "great" and will never be considered "great".
quote]
1986 – Epsom Derby. A lot of people believed Dancing Brave to be extremely unlucky, however the fact remained he was "inferior" to Shahrastani on the day of the Derby, because he finished 2nd. Using your logic, which I am sure the people who sent Shahrsatani off 11/10 favourite at Ascot did, Dancing Brave "would always be inferior" to Shahrastani.
Hindsight tells us otherwise, however you seem to be arguing that if a horse is beaten it is impossible, without subsequent proof, which in the case of Dancing Brave we got in bundles, to label him/her great.
And yet some time ago on here when we debated Brigadier Gerard you argued at length that his B&H defeat at the hands of Roberto was an aberation that should be ignored. I countered this with the clearly less popular suggestion that the Brigadier had actually run up to form and was simply beaten by a better horse on that particlar day, and backed it up with hopefully a reasonable degree of logic.
Unless I am missing something, there seems to be a contradiction here.
That is not what I meant at all Ivanjica. Of course if a horse has been
unlucky
or
improved subsequently
– the runner-up can be rated a "Great". Shahrastani was indeed lucky to beat Dancing Brave who was caught out by an abnormally slow (for a Derby) early pace. Dancing Brave being unlucky there and what is more,
proved
it in Eclipse and Arc.
What I am talking about is: When greatness is a word given to
tough, durable or versatile
horses; who have great attributes yes,
but not even the best
(in
ability
terms) of their generation.
For Example one of my favourite horses of all time is Persian Punch. Had many "great"
attributes
and won many races. Tough, genuine, consistent battler. Yet he was
never
the very best stayer of his generation.
It is surely wrong to call Persian Punch a
true
"Great"
when horses like Westerner, Mr Dinos and Kayf Tara were all capable of better form.
Despite
Persian Punch having a place closer to my heart than those three "better" stayers.
A horse can have many "great" attributes, without calling him/her "a Great". To me a horse is not a
TRUE Great
unless it has the
very best ability
. In my way of thinking that’s a Timeform rating of
140
or more (Dancing Brave, Frankel etc) on the flat or
180
or more over jumps (Desert Orchid, Kauto Star etc).
Value Is EverythingJuly 30, 2011 at 20:31 #366601Pinza times are changing. Your own back yard used to be good enough,but not any more.Even the great BG when he met the Derby winner was found wanting.Nothing like Epsom to separate the wheat from the chaff.Frankel ducked it lets be honest.Which was not fair to Galileo.I believe he would have had a second Derby winner had Sir Henry the fortitude to test both himself and the horse.You cannot pin the ‘Greatest " on a horse who ducked the Derby can you? Maybe great but not "the greatest".History will record that Sir Henry thought he would not win it.Which I suppose puts that argument to rest for all times.Pity.It is easy to say he is the best after I duck taking on the rest in the Derby.Or maybe he meant to say he is the best miler he ever saw?I don’t mind what one calls his horse as long as he can back it up. But to be the best in the world you must take on the world.That is if you want to prove it.
But Frankel has "
PROVEN
himself by putting up ratings of greatness. You can put up ratings in any country, Britain, France, Australia, Ireland, even the USA to prove
greatness
.
For the umpteenth time, a horse needs to
settle
to win a Derby.
Value Is EverythingJuly 30, 2011 at 20:35 #366602Read an article today [may have been from last weeks Independent] that seemed to think Frankel will be going for the Breeders Cup next year. The three year old season doesn’t really pan out for that this year. They said you can’t name a horse Frankel and NOT go to America. Now that I am looking forward to.
-
AuthorPosts
- You must be logged in to reply to this topic.