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Fallon, whilst to be respected, as he was a classic winning jockey, is in no position to criticise JOB over tactics and meeting traffic problems.
I have never seen such an experienced jockey miss so many breaks, get hampered repeatedly during races, and finish fast and late.
Despite being a real sceptic over JOB’s suitability for his role – this simply smacks of opportunitism for a last hurrah.Must have watched the race a dozen times now and the more I watch it the more it becomes apparant that Jospeh did little wrong.
Barzalona asked Encke for his effort approaching the two marker and gives him a crack – little response. Balanced his mount, gives him another crack and he takes two lengths out of the field.
Joseph reacts in the blink of an eye and begins pushing Camelot – no response. The colt with an eight furlong classic to his name has the best part of a furlong and a half to claw back a two length deficit, but is unable to quicken and Encke actually pulls further clear.
Encke, who was being pushed along three out, understandably begins to weaken inside the final furlong and comes back to the field, rather than any of the field actually ‘making’ ground on him.
Facts of the race: Jospeh never stopped riding. Encke produced a smarter turn of foot. Camelot failed to quicken and never pulled away from the third, fourth or fifth placed colts.
He may not have been able to accelerate in the same manner he did at Newmarket and Epsom because maybe, just maybe, he didn’t stay the trip effectively and his class got him through.
I think it was this thread that i stated it was as much – if not more – about trainer versus trainer as opposed to jockeyship. Encke stole an unforseen tactical march. I think threads such as this provoke a thought such as ‘ why not make a thread entitled "the official shocking ride from (name vastly experienced jockey here)". You will have seen worse from so called better and more experienced jockeys. Sometimes it seems as if Joseph O’Brien is criticised for rides on over-hyped horses who wouldn’t have won on anyone else anyway. He wouldn’t, in my borderline clueless opinion, have been given so many important rides if he wasn’t riding to instructions. Give him a bit of space.
Fallon, whilst to be respected, as he was a classic winning jockey, is in no position to criticise JOB over tactics and meeting traffic problems.
I have never seen such an experienced jockey miss so many breaks, get hampered repeatedly during races, and finish fast and late.
Despite being a real sceptic over JOB’s suitability for his role – this simply smacks of opportunitism for a last hurrah.I laughed sardonically and with recognition.
Main Sequence and Thought Worthy both finished a similar distance behind Camelot as they did at Epsom.
Main Sequence may not be bred to stay a Derby or Leger trip, but he clearly stays the former and managed to latch onto the second finishing group towards the end of Saturday’s race.
Lanigan’s charge was never more than 3l behind Camelot for the first 12f, even allowing for his tardy start. I don’t think he would have finished any closer to Camelot had he started on level terms.
Thought Worthy has now apparently "cut out" at the business end of two races (Derby and Leger) and seems to be at his best when gifted a soft lead. He may be suffering from an underlying physical aliment which causes him to cut out so quickly, as he is obviously bred to see out the Leger trip.
The York form was always likely to come under pressure given the very slow pace that day, and so it transpired with Encke improving past Main Sequence and Thought Worthy.
Whether Encke would beat Camelot were the race to be run again is open to debate. Personally I think he would, and that his jockey should have been building his horse’s momentum up at least three frulongs form home. I don’t buy the notion that Camelot simply ran below form, as the lines to Main Sequence and Thought Worth do not support this view.
I think someone mentioned that Camelot ran with his head lower than normal in the early stages. I caught part of the interview before the race, where Aiden stated that Camelot was the heaviest he had ever been and that they had got him running nice and relaxed, carrying his head low. Perhaps that explains that element of his run.
I mentioned that his head carriage was low, though I’m not convinced it was the sign of a relaxed horse, especially when it went from low to high with little/nothing between. His head went up and out, exaggeratedly so, as JOB steered him away from the rail. His tail carriage seemed odd, his leg change turning in looked almost dressage-like and he was changing legs up the straight too. I believe he might have been amiss in some way.
If they hadn’t have run him in the Irish Derby on unsuitable ground, they and the horse would not have won what has proved (recently) to be the best Classic in Europe. Of course it was the right decision – they won.
Irish Derby best classic recently in Europe? I would really like to know how this works out? How the heck is last five years’ lot of Frozen Fire, Fame And Glory, Cape Blanco and Treasure Beach better than the Derby’s New Approach, Sea The Stars, Workforce, Pour Moi or the Guineas’ Henrythenavigator, Sea The Stars, Makfi and Frankel (Camelot being of course the fifth winner of each of these)? Utter bullshit I’m afraid. Even the Prix De Diane has a better lot with Zarkava, Stacelita, Sarafina, Golden Lilac and Valyra.
I mentioned that his head carriage was low, though I’m not convinced it was the sign of a relaxed horse, especially when it went from low to high with little/nothing between. His head went up and out, exaggeratedly so, as JOB steered him away from the rail. His tail carriage seemed odd, his leg change turning in looked almost dressage-like and he was changing legs up the straight too.
I believe he might have been amiss in some way.
Or like a lot of Montjeu progeny, going the wrong way temperamentally. Showed the same high head carriage in the closing stages of the Irish Derby.
Value Is EverythingI think we’re disecting the defeat of an at best above average colt, NONE of Camelot’s form stands up to any scrutiny. In all the races he’s won, only 8 yes 8 horses have won a race subsequently, only one "Power" won a G1, in that G1 only 2 of the beaten horses have won since, both at G3 level.
This is the worst crop of 3 year-olds I can remember!
Camelot is a good horse. Fair enough not many of the vanquished have gone on to win… But Hermival 2 3/4 length third in the 2000 went on to be second, just 3/4 length away from Most Improved in the St James’s Stakes. Not run since… And Main Sequence beaten 5 lengths by Camelot at Epsom. Looked unlucky in both Grand Prix de Paris (couldn’t get through and beaten 1 1/2 lengths by Imperial Monarch). Then held up off a slow pace second in the Great Voltigeur (neck behind the all the way winner Thought Worthy. Latter also beaten just over 11 lengths by Camelot in the Derby.
To use both the Gosden and Lanigan horses performances in the St Leger as a direct line to Camelot running to form looks a dodgy form line. Main Sequence isn’t bred to get 1m4f, let alone almost 1m7f… And he fluffed the start, losing lengths. Thought Worthy didn’t run anything like as well at Donny as he did at York.
Camelot is a good horse, hasn’t yet (and possibly won’t now) show he’s as good as Coolmore make him out to be. I’ve a sneaky suspicion temperament just might get the better of him; is by Montjeu after all.
What Power did in the Irish Guineas is an irrelevance KD. Long way below form, trailing in 17th of 18 at Newmarket. When Power doesn’t run to form at Newmarket, then whatever he does subsequently neither advertises or denigrates Camelot/form of the English Guineas.
The horses to judge Camelot on are Hermival (close up in the St James’s Palace), Main Sequence (French run and Voltigeur both arguably unlucky) and Thought Worthy (Ascot and York). Though latter two horses probably didn’t run to form in the St Leger either. See above.
Value Is EverythingTo be fair to Camelot it’s a bit premature to be judging him just yet.
I’ve never rated him highly myself because the opposition looks pretty ordinary but that doesn’t always mean the horse in question is.
I put his defeat in the St Leger down to bad luck more than a bad ride ride combined with his inability to quicken. I should add over a trip 2 1/2 furlongs further than he has ever ran before.
You’d have to say he seen out the 1m61/2 furlong trip ok but is it his ultimate trip and how much did it take away from his natural ability to quicken? e.g. Rip Van Winkle’s best trip was 8f and would have kicked Sea the Stars into touch at the 2 furlong marker in the Eclipse but when they hit the Sandown hill they were in STS’s territory. He still ran a blinder and he just about stayed 10f but over 1m4f in the Derby he also ran a cracker and stayed on strongly but his ability to actually quicken had gone completely. He went on to win some decent races but Aiden never ran him at 12f again. You can bet your life Camelot will never run beyond 12 furlongs again. if at all.
So whether it me you or Timeform judging Camelot on his St leger defeat is a bit unfair is not stupid. No matter what anyone says it is that defeat that has people getting stuck into "I knew he wasn’t that good" and that includes me.
If AOB is truly confident in the horse then we should at some point see Camelot again over 12 furlongs against older horses, hopefully decent ones, and it is then we can judge the horse.
A word on Power… he was never a serious Guineas horse. He was a 2yo that Aiden ran 6 times and would have run 10 times if he could have found the races. He did exceptionally well to beat professional loser Foxtrot Romeo with him but I wouldn’t dream of bringing him into the equation nor Hermival or Main sequence for that matter.
Totally unfair to judge Camelot on what he has done he can’t help it if they are all moderate and he should be judged on what he does from now on in.
The horses to judge Camelot on are Hermival (close up in the St James’s Palace), Main Sequence (French run and Voltigeur both arguably unlucky) and Thought Worthy (Ascot and York). Though latter two horses probably didn’t run to form in the St Leger either. See above.
If you believe MS and TW probably didn’t run to form in the Leger then why is it that MS finished almost the same distance behind Camelot at Donnie as he did Epsom, and Thought Worthy about 1.5l further behind Camelot than at Epsom?
MS did miss the break at Donnie but he was never further than 3l adrift of Camelot and was right on Camelot’s tail within a furlong.
Obviously Encke’s improvement past MS and TW on York form could be held up as proof the Leger form was wrong, however I would be inclined to conclude the York form was actually suspect as it was run at a crawl and TW was allowed to kick for home off an uncontested lead.
I believe neither Main Sequence, Thought Worthy or Camelot ran to their best in the Leger Ivanjica. If you believe Main Sequence ran to form then both Michelangelo and Ursa Major would’ve been in front of Main Sequence at Epsom. And that Encke would’ve won the Derby and easily won the Grand Prix De Paris… For me that’s unlikely.
Like you Ivanjica, I don’t believe the Voltigeur form. Thought Worthy flattered by beating Main Sequence there. However, he’d been a good third, within a length of winning the King Edward too. Although winner Thomas Chippendale hasn’t done much for the form (pulled in both Voltigeur and Leger and possibly better with more give anyway) second home there Noble Mission went on to take the Gordon. So even without the Voltigeur, Thought Worthy was below Ascot form at Donny.
I believe had Main Sequence ran to form in the Leger he’d have been a good third.Value Is EverythingWhat to make of all that form?!!!
Noble Mission has twice beaten Michelangelo who has beaten Thought Worthy who beat Noble Mission twice but lost to him once and Thought Worthy has twice beaten Tommy Chip but was beaten by him at Ascot when Tommy Chip also beat Noble Mission suggesting he has the beating of Michelangelo except he beat him in the Leger and then you have Main Sequence who has beaten Thought Worthy twice but lost to him once and who finished behind Michelangelo suggesting Noble Mission could beat him especially as he also beat Encke who beat Camelot who beat Thought Worthy, Michelangelo and Tommy Chip who killed the cat that ate the malt that lived in the house that Jack built!!!!
"this perfect mix of poetry and destruction, this glory of rhythm, power and majesty: the undisputed champion of the world!!!"
What to make of all that form?!!!
Noble Mission has twice beaten Michelangelo who has beaten Thought Worthy who beat Noble Mission twice but lost to him once and Thought Worthy has twice beaten Tommy Chip but was beaten by him at Ascot when Tommy Chip also beat Noble Mission suggesting he has the beating of Michelangelo except he beat him in the Leger and then you have Main Sequence who has beaten Thought Worthy twice but lost to him once and who finished behind Michelangelo suggesting Noble Mission could beat him especially as he also beat Encke who beat Camelot who beat Thought Worthy, Michelangelo and Tommy Chip who killed the cat that ate the malt that lived in the house that Jack built!!!!
Brilliant!
Richard Hughes in today’s RP:
"Halfway through the Leger I turned to another jockey and said I didn’t like how Camelot was moving. If you look at the way he galloped in the Derby and the way he raced in the Leger you’ll see a horse with two totally different gaits. To my eyes his gait last Saturday was all wrong. Camelot generally has a high head carriage but he carried his head noticeably low and between his legs, which I don’t like to see in a flat horse because it signifies the horse isn’t happy.
"A horse who can quicken as he did in the Guineas should not have found it difficult to accelerate off a slower speed in the Leger. The fact that he was unable to backed up by the way he moved showed that he cannot have been on song."
I mentioned that his head carriage was low, though I’m not convinced it was the sign of a relaxed horse, especially when it went from low to high with little/nothing between. His head went up and out, exaggeratedly so, as JOB steered him away from the rail. His tail carriage seemed odd, his leg change turning in looked almost dressage-like and he was changing legs up the straight too. I believe he might have been amiss in some way.
I noticed early in the race that his head was really low, in fact I said to my Wife that he was lobbing like a 3 mile chaser. Due to what the trainer had said before the race I was not surprised to see him like that and assumed it was what they had planned on, to help ensure that he had the best chance possible of staying the trip. It seems hard to believe that there was something amiss with Camelot when he maintained his superiority over his Derby rivals by similar margins. How far would he have had to win by to believe he gave his true running? If he had scrambled home by a head we would probably not be having any of the discussion on this thread. Camelot would be hailed a legend by many and it would be accepted that Encke improved a ton and was a Gold Cup winner in waiting for next year. As Jonibake said "What are we to make of the form?"
I reckon that a page taken from the three year old Colts form book from this year can be held up to the light and will resemble Rab C Nesbitt’s string vest. Hullo Mary Doll
Thanks for the good crack. Time for me to move on. Be lucky.
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