- This topic has 160 replies, 54 voices, and was last updated 11 years, 12 months ago by
.
-
Posts
-
Sorry but I cannot buy into a horse who came through to win the 2000 Guineas then being caught "Flat Footed" in a St Leger.
I think it was Barry Hills who said, regarding the Derby trip, "Oh, they ALL get the trip, it is a question of how long it takes them to cover it"
To my eyes he made the headway to reel in the horses he did in the Derby and, for a moment I thought he was going to win but his run stalled and I think he was gaining on a horse who was similarly tiring and who had been out on his own in front for a fair way.
Channel 4 made a big point of waxing on about what a great Jockey Joseph O Brien is ahead of the race. Clearly that is largely lip service but I don’t think the boy deserves the stick he is getting and the smell of sour grapes is in the air. If Camelot were even HALF the horse Aiden was blowing him up to be, he would have disposed of a moderate vintage with plenty to spare.
The biggest load of bollocks of the day award went to Jim McGrath who stated in his preview that Guarantee had run a great trial for the Leger in the Melrose HANDICAP at York. What a hotbed of Leger winners that has been over the years. Why the horse was 12/1 was a mystery to me.
Thanks for the good crack. Time for me to move on. Be lucky.
Yet another totally over-hyped horse gets blown out of the water and its all the fault of the jockey
. Every year we get these world beating 3-y-o’s and then they’re never seen on the track again. No wonder racing struggles to captivate new followers. God speed the jumps proper.I’m at a loss to understand where Joseph has been given any particular stick.
Okay a few people on the various forums maybe – one or two of whom clearly wanted the horse to fail- but generally people are just commenting on the choice of tactics from the O’Brien team. As for ‘sour grapes’ I hardly think so. I doubt more than a tiny percentage of the race watching public backed a heavily odds on horse over a trip nobody knew for sure he was capable of.
The horse clearly did get the trip. He was beaten three quarters of a length by one horse. Whether he is as effective over that trip as he appeared to be over a mile and a half is questionable, but he hardly flopped did he?
I personally very much wanted to see a new Triple Crown winner. There’s no sour grapes on my part, just disappointment. If he had been beaten out of sight then the disappointment would soon have disappeared, but he wasn’t. He ran a race that is subject to scrutiny and I am convinced that in a differently run race he may well have scrambled home.
All this talk of him being over rated or a poor horse is complete… well horse sh1t really. He won a Guineas a mite cheekily and then went on to win a Derby in fine style. He’s only been beaten once. He’s a class act as far as I’m concerned.
Is he on a par with the last TC winner? Probably not but who knows for sure? Nijinsky reputedly didn’t beat a fantastic crop either.
The race is being run again tomorrow Hammy – do you make Encke a hot favourite? Not me – with a decent ride the best horse in the race wins cosily. Camelot.
As for "god speed the jumps" – yeah terrific, can’t wait until I have to guess which horses are trying until mid-March, let alone the form book.
The race is being run again tomorrow Hammy – do you make Encke a hot favourite? Not me – with a decent ride the best horse in the race wins cosily. Camelot.
As for "god speed the jumps" – yeah terrific, can’t wait until I have to guess which horses are trying until mid-March, let alone the form book.
I make you right there PC. I think there’s a very good chance he would have won under a different set of riding instructions.
I can also see that he might not necessarily have been at his best on the day, which I think only serves to reinforce the previous point.
Interesting point of view – when was the last time pre-Joseph that Coolmore ballsed up tactically so spectacularly in a Classic?
His father is taking responsibility for the tactical decisions that played out on Saturday. I’m sure jockeys often take stick unfairly after riding to orders and this may be one of those cases. Run the race next week and one thing that’d definitely be different is that Ballydoyle would have at least two strong pace horses in there.
I wou;dn’t underestimate Encke either. It’s always tempting to write a result like that off as somehow ‘freaky’ but there was a lot to like about that winner and he could yet be a horse with a bright future over a mile and a half/six. We may well yet look back on that result in a year or two and view it very differently.
His father is taking responsibility for the tactical decisions that played out on Saturday. I’m sure jockeys often take stick unfairly after riding to orders and this may be one of those cases. Run the race next week and one thing that’d definitely be different is that Ballydoyle would have at least two strong pace horses in there.
I wou;dn’t underestimate Encke either. It’s always tempting to write a result like that off as somehow ‘freaky’ but there was a lot to like about that winner and he could yet be a horse with a bright future over a mile and a half/six. We may well yet look back on that result in a year or two and view it very differently.
It looked that way, to me.
Would a more experience jockey have ditched those orders when he saw the pace not as strong as they expected.
I took a freeze frame at the two furlong pole although I don’t seem to be able to get it to show on here.
If you have a look at this freeze frame Camelot now has daylight. At this stage Encke has been under pressure from his jockey for a furlong already and has made no headway away from Camelot who is still on the bridle and is right behind Encke. All the other horses are hard at it. Camelot has perfect position. Knowing how the horses have performed before you would put your house on Camelot to cruise by. About 50 yards after this Barzelona gave Encke a second crack and he suddenly quickened in an amazing fashion and, in a second, put a 3 length gap between the two. Because Encke had already been under pressure for over a furlong you could not have predicted he would suddenly quicken like he did. Even at this stage with 1 3/4 furlongs to go Camelot had plenty of time to close the gap if good enough. Camelot was then put under pressure from his jockey and found very little. Now watch the rest of this race and you will see the gap remained pretty constant until 1/2 furlong from home and then Camelot started to catch him. Quite simply Camelot didn’t quicken as expected and couldn’t close up on Encke until the winner tired right at the finish. Camelot could not have gone earlier. There was no certainty he would stay and to set him off then would have been suicide. O’Brien was in a no win situation. If he had gone earlier and his horse tired and lost he would have been pilloried for setting off a horse who’s staying credentials were in doubt too early. If he went when he did and lost he is then pilloried for leaving it too late. If he won he wouldn’t receive any praise at all. As has been said he was on a hiding to nothing.
Yes, I would have loved to have seen Camelot win. I really wanted to see a triple crown winner in my lifetime. Alas, I probably never will. Despite the fact that Camelot would have gone down in history and, what his owner says about him, you have to question how good he really is. Despite winning the 2000gns, Derby and Irish Derby this seasons 3yo’s are moderate at best.
Lets look at how the form of Camelot’s previous runs have worked out. As you can see it has been pretty dire. Out of 108 future runs, apart from Camelot, these have produced just 8 future winners. Only one of which was a Group 1. Maybe Camelot is just not as good as we have liked to think. I do hope they have a crack at the Arc with him and he stays in training as a 4yo. We can then perhaps better judge how good he really is.
As a 2yo
1st Run. 14 July 2011 maiden 5 runners. There have been 19 runners since from that race and apart from Camelot only one horse has won and that was a maiden at Wolverhampton. 8 unplaced.
2nd run. Racing Post Trophy 22 Oct 2011. 5 runners. 17 runners since. Apart from Camelot only two future winners. One a small listed race and the other a weak 9k race in Ireland. 10 unplaced.
As a 3yo
1st run. 2000gns 5 may 2012. 18 runners. 51 runs since. Apart from Camelot just 3 winners. One group 3, a 7k conditional stakes and one group 1 in Ireland. 41 runners unplaced.
2nd Run. Derby 2 June 2012. 9 runners. 15 Runs since. Apart from Camelot just one winner. A Group 2 event.10 unplaced.
3rd Run. Irish Derby 30 June. 5 runners. 6 runs since just one winner a small listed race in Ireland. 4 unplaced.
It is actually a simple race to read if you take the emotion out of it and if you did run the race again tomorrow you would get exactly the same result.
Enke won because he is the better horse over 14f. When JOB pressed the button 2f out there was no response. He only started making up the ground in the last half furlong. Camelot has confirmed his form over MS and TW and has been beaten by a horse that has improved past him over that trip.
If that had been the 3.30 at Pontefract on a Tuesday afternoon nobody would have said a thing. It was not a bad ride. The horse was not good enough.
"this perfect mix of poetry and destruction, this glory of rhythm, power and majesty: the undisputed champion of the world!!!"
That randomness and uncertainty is what makes racing such an interesting and compelling medium for gamblers.
Of course there is one horse out there with whom you don’t have to worry about randomness and uncertainty………. sorry couldnt resist!!!
"this perfect mix of poetry and destruction, this glory of rhythm, power and majesty: the undisputed champion of the world!!!"
I’m at a loss to understand where Joseph has been given any particular stick.
Okay a few people on the various forums maybe – one or two of whom clearly wanted the horse to fail- but generally people are just commenting on the choice of tactics from the O’Brien team. As for ‘sour grapes’ I hardly think so. I doubt more than a tiny percentage of the race watching public backed a heavily odds on horse over a trip nobody knew for sure he was capable of.
The horse clearly did get the trip. He was beaten three quarters of a length by one horse. Whether he is as effective over that trip as he appeared to be over a mile and a half is questionable, but he hardly flopped did he?
I personally very much wanted to see a new Triple Crown winner. There’s no sour grapes on my part, just disappointment. If he had been beaten out of sight then the disappointment would soon have disappeared, but he wasn’t. He ran a race that is subject to scrutiny and I am convinced that in a differently run race he may well have scrambled home.
All this talk of him being over rated or a poor horse is complete… well horse sh1t really. He won a Guineas a mite cheekily and then went on to win a Derby in fine style. He’s only been beaten once. He’s a class act as far as I’m concerned.
Is he on a par with the last TC winner? Probably not but who knows for sure? Nijinsky reputedly didn’t beat a fantastic crop either.
I think you must be blind if you can’t see the stick Joseph is getting. The thread is even titled to help with that. People do not have to back a horse to create the sense of disappointment when it gets beaten. Plenty have opined that the horse was something special, even though the form looked shaky, it was expected in some minds that he would romp home. When that doesn’t happen, it is as predictable as Christmas that there will be bitterness, sour grapes, excuses and blame trotted out. Camelot was hyped up and at the time of the Derby win he looked potentially one that might be special. His subsequent run in the worst Irish Derby I can remember and the form of the horses he had beaten cast some doubt over that possibility. Yesterday’s race confirmed that he has his limitations, although still a very good horse, rather than a brilliant one. I think you have a bit of a neck calling other peoples opinions horse crap. That is kiddie forum talk, rather than the advertised intelligent discussion TRF is said to be about.
There seems to be this magic theory that a horse can sit closer to the pace without expending more energy than if he is dropped out behind. If you watch the race without the blinkers on you can clearly see a point where Camelot’s progress falters and he goes from looking like winning to looking like being held. I shouted to my wife "He’s going to do it" only to shortly add "He’s not going to get there" and in the end he was beaten less than I thought as the winner also reached the end of his tether.
I didn’t watch Nijinsky back in the day but saw his races on Saturday. I didn’t find him that exciting to watch, he seemed to come with a steady run each time and I thought he was tired at the end of the St Leger. I could not compare the quality of what he beat compared to Camelot but he managed to get the job done.
I am not a fan of the St Leger or the triple crown. I would far rather see a three year old take on older horses in the Arc to bring a career or season to an end. I think it provides a more satisfactory conclusion and lets us compare generations. I don’t think Camelot will show up there but I’ll gladly take him on if he does. Hopefully, on 20th October we can all watch a real superstar pull the curtain down on a glittering career and, for once, just enjoy it instead of having a good bloody moan about some aspect of it.
Thanks for the good crack. Time for me to move on. Be lucky.
Well, I did watch Nijinsky back in the day.
I am certain that he would have beaten Camelot ten times out of ten – whether at 8f, 12f or 14f.
Gambling Only Pays When You're Winning
I’m at a loss to understand where Joseph has been given any particular stick.
Okay a few people on the various forums maybe – one or two of whom clearly wanted the horse to fail- but generally people are just commenting on the choice of tactics from the O’Brien team. As for ‘sour grapes’ I hardly think so. I doubt more than a tiny percentage of the race watching public backed a heavily odds on horse over a trip nobody knew for sure he was capable of.
The horse clearly did get the trip. He was beaten three quarters of a length by one horse. Whether he is as effective over that trip as he appeared to be over a mile and a half is questionable, but he hardly flopped did he?
I personally very much wanted to see a new Triple Crown winner. There’s no sour grapes on my part, just disappointment. If he had been beaten out of sight then the disappointment would soon have disappeared, but he wasn’t. He ran a race that is subject to scrutiny and I am convinced that in a differently run race he may well have scrambled home.
All this talk of him being over rated or a poor horse is complete… well horse sh1t really. He won a Guineas a mite cheekily and then went on to win a Derby in fine style. He’s only been beaten once. He’s a class act as far as I’m concerned.
Is he on a par with the last TC winner? Probably not but who knows for sure? Nijinsky reputedly didn’t beat a fantastic crop either.
I think you must be blind if you can’t see the stick Joseph is getting. The thread is even titled to help with that. People do not have to back a horse to create the sense of disappointment when it gets beaten. Plenty have opined that the horse was something special, even though the form looked shaky, it was expected in some minds that he would romp home. When that doesn’t happen, it is as predictable as Christmas that there will be bitterness, sour grapes, excuses and blame trotted out. Camelot was hyped up and at the time of the Derby win he looked potentially one that might be special. His subsequent run in the worst Irish Derby I can remember and the form of the horses he had beaten cast some doubt over that possibility. Yesterday’s race confirmed that he has his limitations, although still a very good horse, rather than a brilliant one. I think you have a bit of a neck calling other peoples opinions horse crap. That is kiddie forum talk, rather than the advertised intelligent discussion TRF is said to be about.
There seems to be this magic theory that a horse can sit closer to the pace without expending more energy than if he is dropped out behind. If you watch the race without the blinkers on you can clearly see a point where Camelot’s progress falters and he goes from looking like winning to looking like being held. I shouted to my wife "He’s going to do it" only to shortly add "He’s not going to get there" and in the end he was beaten less than I thought as the winner also reached the end of his tether.
I didn’t watch Nijinsky back in the day but saw his races on Saturday. I didn’t find him that exciting to watch, he seemed to come with a steady run each time and I thought he was tired at the end of the St Leger. I could not compare the quality of what he beat compared to Camelot but he managed to get the job done.
I am not a fan of the St Leger or the triple crown. I would far rather see a three year old take on older horses in the Arc to bring a career or season to an end. I think it provides a more satisfactory conclusion and lets us compare generations. I don’t think Camelot will show up there but I’ll gladly take him on if he does. Hopefully, on 20th October we can all watch a real superstar pull the curtain down on a glittering career and, for once, just enjoy it instead of having a good bloody moan about some aspect of it.
Great post as usual Steve. Sadly though there will be plenty on here who will have a "good bloody moan" no matter what happens on 20th Oct.
Saying that, I think Hammy is right to say that Camelot is a class act. You don’t win a Guineas and Derby without being exceptionally good and I think the way he ran that day at Epsom would have won many a Derby.
On a slightly different vein and at the risk of inviting the Frankel bashers to vent, I was thinking about this last night – the whole "we will do what is best for the horse" line we hear from the likes of Cecil, Gosden and Stoute but which you rarely hear from Coolmore. For example would Cecil or Stoute have run one of their champions on heavy ground in the Irish Derby? Would Oxx for that matter? Have Coolmore done the right thing by their horse? Or have they done the right thing for themselves? Or have they done the right thing for racing? Answers on a postcard.
"this perfect mix of poetry and destruction, this glory of rhythm, power and majesty: the undisputed champion of the world!!!"
If they hadn’t have run him in the Irish Derby on unsuitable ground, they and the horse would not have won what has proved (recently) to be the best Classic in Europe. Of course it was the right decision – they won.
If they hadn’t have run him in the Irish Derby on unsuitable ground, they and the horse would not have won what has proved (recently) to be the best Classic in Europe. Of course it was the right decision – they won.
Bed time for you PC! Recent winners Frozen Fire, Fame and Glory, Cape Blanco and Treasure Beech!!!
Anyway not sure you are getting my point. He won – just – but at what cost? How much did it take out of him? Did it prevent him running in the KG or something else? Did it have any effect yesterday? Was it the best thing for the horse?
"this perfect mix of poetry and destruction, this glory of rhythm, power and majesty: the undisputed champion of the world!!!"
anybody who thinks joseph done nothing wrong on camelot is just saying it because they can and because camelot lost. its almost as if they wanted camelot to loose, and they are glad that he has. why?
francome talks complete **** as well. why wasn’t camelot at his best today? because he didn’t win? the horse was flying at the end.
it disgusts me at the way joseph was sitting there motionlessly when the camera focused in, and all the others were hard at work. after the race, you can see when joseph is pulling camelot up that he knows he has messed up, by the look on his face. not because of the horse losing, but because of his errors.
nevertheless, i will back camelot for the arc, providing he runs. i fail to be drawn into the aob is "avoiding the older horses" with camelot.
Francome does (apparently) make some money by pinhooking. He should know about the way a horse travels. I don’t know if he’s right or wrong. But it’s possible he’s right.
By going up the inner, Joseph had to wait for a gap, as you say "sitting there motionless" though it was hardly that. When there are horses directly in front a jockey can’t do anything else. In the meantime Barca had got first run on Encke. Joseph gained for a while, but The horse wasn’t "flying at the end". If you look at a replay Del_Boy Camelot made ground up after he got out, but being held in the final strides.
Ballydoyle were going for History today. It’s absolutely understandable Aidan bungled his words and for Joseph to look devastated. They had a great chance of pulling it off, so naturally both father and son will blame themselves; especially a nineteen year old.
Not that you sound any older Del_Boy.
I was urging on Camelot like everyone else. As I said, apart from going up the inner, can’t see Joseph did anything wrong. However, looking at how the runners fanned out (in a one sided arrowhead entering the straight) he had little choice but to go up the inside.It’s sad Camelot didn’t win, you seem to want someone to blame. These things happen.
i disagree about joseph having to wait for a gap. his errors of going inside are what forced him to have to wait for a gap.
whether lestor piggot done the same thing and got beat on Camelot I would still hold the same opinion. its hardly looking for someone to blame, just a little constructive criticism. after all, if you can’t have that in a spectators sport, what is the point?
- You must be logged in to reply to this topic.