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I have several differnt views on this race.
It is sad to see Camelot fail in his bid for the triple crown. Having said that the 3 classics this year were of an incredibly poor standard in my view. So perhaps it is only fair that he doesn’t emulate Nijinsky.
I do think that he had sufficient stamina to have completed the feat, and I don’t think that there was any doubt that he stayed.
I thought that it was a commendable gesture by O’Brien senior to shoulder the blame for not running his own pacemakers, and therefore trying to shift the blame away from JOB.
I think that Barzalona rode a great race , and was possibly the difference between winning and losing today.
I agree totally with Bachelors Hall about not sending a boy to do a mans job, and have commented on this point myself before. That said, whilst agreeing that it was a poor ride from JOB, it wasn’t the worst that we have seen from him by quite some way.
He simply isn’t good enough for such a high profile role, and his mistakes therefore are all the more apparent.
I cannot believe that such a high achieving set of connections will persist with this ploy much longer, and that a top clsss stable jockey will be appointed for next season.
Taxi for Ryan Moore anyone ?
Gibberish interview with O’Brien snr who looked completely rattled (esp due to the tic-like "listen" count which reached garagantuan proportions).
I think it must have dawned on Aiden after a couple of furlongs that he’d been tactically outsmarted by John Gosden. We all knew that Camelot would be held up and the one way to beat a hold-up horse is to ensure there is a slow pace.
If all horses had equal amounts of speed and stamina then I’d agree with your point about the best place to be in a slowish run race is nearer the front. However, these horses weren’t the same. You could expect a 2000 Guineas winner to have more speed than these in a slower run race (provided Camelot settled which he did) even if coming from further back than many.
Not that Joseph was that far out of his ground. Nowhere near what some people on here are saying. At the 3f marker less than a length behind Encke. At the two marker Level with Michelangelo (3rd) and only a length behind Encke. Surely anyone could expect Camelot (going best at the time) to win from there?
Value Is EverythingJust so there is no doubt whatsoever – I was on Thought Worthy (albeit e/w). Now that’s cleared up…
Fallon.
Hanagan.
Hughes.
Moore.
Four jockeys who did not have a ride in the St Leger.
Fallon.
Hanagan.
Hughes.
Moore.
Four jockeys who are better than Joseph O’Brien
Fallon.
Hanagan.
Hughes.
Moore.
Four jockeys who would have won on Camelot.
End of.
Can I just point out that the modern fetish for finishing a sentence
‘End of’
or
‘Full stop.’
does not imply, as it’s users seem to believe, that no further debate could possibly take place.
Although of course, you are almost certainly correct in this case.
Mike
If all horses had equal amounts of speed and stamina then I’d agree with your point about the best place to be in a slowish run race is nearer the front. However, these horses weren’t the same. You could expect a 2000 Guineas winner to have more speed than these in a slower run race (provided Camelot settled which he did) even if coming from further back than many.
It would have been interesting to have the fractions for the final furlong. I suspect they would show that Camelot faced in impossible task in trying to overhaul Encke given the lead he had entering the final furlong.
Aidan O’Brien appears to allow his heart to rule his head…
although Camelot didn’t help his jockey when the panic button was pressed, by putting his head in the air and swishing his tail… allowing the winner to get a couple of lengths – so perhaps a little ungenuine under pressure is Camelot… but he certainly stayed alright…
Excellent sensible post.
Despite finding a bit of trouble the fact is the horse was out and clear with fully 2 furlongs to run.
I’ve seen a thousand jockeys being in far worse position and the horse has still won.
The fact is Camelot had all the time in the world to get there but was beaten because he is not the wonder horse Aiden hyped him up to be.
Camelot has run to form within inches with Main Sequence which is interesting.
I am not defending Joseph if he had not stuck to the inside inside he would have made a much better race of it and perhaps he would have won but no way I’d stake my life on it because there’s no way on this planet was he ever going to win hard on the steel like the champion AOB was making him out to be.
The thing that makes me laugh is when a horse is odds on and expected to win but gets into trouble then it’s bad ride. If he’s unfancied and gets into trouble in running he was unlucky.
Camelot’s class carried him into second the truth is he didnt really stay well enough he couldn’t quicken at the extra distance.
There was nothing wrong with O’Brien’s ride, no one criticised Queally for riding Frankel in a similar way at York did they? The difference is O’Brien today just didn’t have the horse under him.
Despite the rubbish spouted on C4, Camelot would’ve won easily at a mile and a half because he would’ve quickened at about the ten furlong mark. Camelot just couldnt quicken after travelling a couple of furlongs further.
If all horses had equal amounts of speed and stamina then I’d agree with your point about the best place to be in a slowish run race is nearer the front. However, these horses weren’t the same. You could expect a 2000 Guineas winner to have more speed than these in a slower run race (provided Camelot settled which he did) even if coming from further back than many.
It would have been interesting to have the fractions for the final furlong. I suspect they would show that Camelot faced in impossible task in trying to overhaul Encke given the lead he had entering the final furlong.
Camelot was in the clear 2 furlongs out. Distance aside if that had been Sea the Stars e.g., who’s not even one of my all time favs, he would not only have caught the leader but he’d have done so with half a furlong to run and went past him like a tree like he did from a similar position in the Arc.
Blame Joseph all you like but some of the blame has to be put on the horse’s lack of ability
Just so there is no doubt whatsoever – I was on Thought Worthy (albeit e/w). Now that’s cleared up…
Fallon.
Hanagan.
Hughes.
Moore.
Four jockeys who did not have a ride in the St Leger.
Fallon.
Hanagan.
Hughes.
Moore.
Four jockeys who are better than Joseph O’Brien
Fallon.
Hanagan.
Hughes.
Moore.
Four jockeys who would have won on Camelot.
End of.
Doubt if Moore would have won
anybody who thinks joseph done nothing wrong on camelot is just saying it because they can and because camelot lost. its almost as if they wanted camelot to loose, and they are glad that he has. why?
francome talks complete **** as well. why wasn’t camelot at his best today? because he didn’t win? the horse was flying at the end.
it disgusts me at the way joseph was sitting there motionlessly when the camera focused in, and all the others were hard at work. after the race, you can see when joseph is pulling camelot up that he knows he has messed up, by the look on his face. not because of the horse losing, but because of his errors.
nevertheless, i will back camelot for the arc, providing he runs. i fail to be drawn into the aob is "avoiding the older horses" with camelot.
Francome does (apparently) make some money by pinhooking. He should know about the way a horse travels. I don’t know if he’s right or wrong. But it’s possible he’s right.
By going up the inner, Joseph had to wait for a gap, as you say "sitting there motionless" though it was hardly that. When there are horses directly in front a jockey can’t do anything else. In the meantime Barca had got first run on Encke. Joseph gained for a while, but The horse wasn’t "flying at the end". If you look at a replay Del_Boy Camelot made ground up after he got out, but being held in the final strides.
Ballydoyle were going for History today. It’s absolutely understandable Aidan bungled his words and for Joseph to look devastated. They had a great chance of pulling it off, so naturally both father and son will blame themselves; especially a nineteen year old.
Not that you sound any older Del_Boy.
I was urging on Camelot like everyone else. As I said, apart from going up the inner, can’t see Joseph did anything wrong. However, looking at how the runners fanned out (in a one sided arrowhead entering the straight) he had little choice but to go up the inside.It’s sad Camelot didn’t win, you seem to want someone to blame. These things happen.
Value Is Everythinganybody who thinks joseph done nothing wrong on camelot is just saying it because they can and because camelot lost. its almost as if they wanted camelot to loose, and they are glad that he has. why?
francome talks complete **** as well. why wasn’t camelot at his best today? because he didn’t win? the horse was flying at the end.
it disgusts me at the way joseph was sitting there motionlessly when the camera focused in, and all the others were hard at work. after the race, you can see when joseph is pulling camelot up that he knows he has messed up, by the look on his face. not because of the horse losing, but because of his errors.
nevertheless, i will back camelot for the arc, providing he runs. i fail to be drawn into the aob is "avoiding the older horses" with camelot.
Francome does (apparently) make some money by pinhooking. He should know about the way a horse travels. I don’t know if he’s right or wrong. But it’s possible he’s right.
By going up the inner, Joseph had to wait for a gap, as you say "sitting there motionless" though it was hardly that. When there are horses directly in front a jockey can’t do anything else. In the meantime Barca had got first run on Encke. Joseph gained for a while, but
The horse wasn’t "flying at the end"
. If you look at a replay Del_Boy Camelot made ground up after he got out, but being held in the final strides.
Ballydoyle were going for History today. It’s absolutely understandable Aidan bungled his words and for Joseph to look devastated. They had a great chance of pulling it off, so naturally both father and son will blame themselves; especially a nineteen year old.
Not that you sound any older Del_Boy.
I was urging on Camelot like everyone else. As I said, apart from going up the inner, can’t see Joseph did anything wrong. However, looking at how the runners fanned out (in a one sided arrowhead) he had little choice but to go up the inside.It’s sad Camelot didn’t win, you seem to want someone to blame. These things happen.
Maybe you should take another look at the replay yourself Ginge. Neither jockey has dropped his hands before the line and Camelot has moved from three lengths down to three quarters of a length by the line in the last twenty five yards. How the hell is that not ‘flying at the finish’?
Here, see for yourself:
I don’t think Camelot was flying at the finish. That term i suppose can be interpreted differently. To me i think it means the horse is finishing quickly and going very fast by the time he crosses the line. I think Camelot lost a good bit of his finishing pace by the time he actually crossed the line. Camelot didn’t look to have much more in him.
Could do without McGrath implying that Francome is some sort of savant as he said that Camelot wasn’t travelling after a few furlongs. Total nonsense, he was going fine.
As for O’Brien jnr, thought it was a bizarre decision to switch to the inside rather than just bring the horse with a withering run down the outer a la the Derby. Mind, I disagree that Camelot was ‘flying at the death’, thought he was just staying on against the tiring winner.
Camelot was going fine to my eyes too, though I wasn’t too impressed with his attitude when finally getting some light and setting off in pursuit of the winner: head rose and action a little timid but did eventually buckle down and consent to gallop and try. Stayed fine but it was a staying on performance not the turn of foot performance connections were presumably expecting
It was a poor decision to stay on the inner; had he been produced earlier on the outer he may have had more time to settle and surge. I’m of the opinion the horse became unsettled and disappointed by being restrained and tugged at behind too many horses for too long
Also, given it did appear that the race was of moderate pace, I think a more experienced jockey, one more adept at judging pace, would have settled the horse much further up the field, say in fourth or fifth
O’Brien Junior was too confident throughout and his tactical nous, in this race, lacking
Re: the ‘flying at the finish’ remarks, look at Camelot in relation to Michelangelo at the half-furlong mark and at the finish. The distance between them looks about the same at both points to me.
The winner was just tying up in my view.
Mike
To change the subject slightly [gutted by the result, by the way; think it was very brave of O’Brien to run the horse and wanted a fairytale result] never having seen the footage of Nijinsky’s St Leger before, who was that tiny little horse that came second to him?
Didn’t look a good ride to me – I continue to be amazed that a ruthless business like Coolmore employ the lad as Nr 1.
I cannot think of one Joseph has ‘pinched’ for Coolmore. But there have already been plenty he has cost the company, today the comfortably the most expensive error the lad will ever make.
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