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The Next Arkle….

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  • #7092
    moehat
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    • Total Posts 7922

    Have decided that the God of Racing should strike down anyone who says or writes that a horse is ‘The Next Arkle’….there will never ever be another ‘himself’ and it stops us appreciating these wonderful horses for what they are in their own right….

    #151192
    clivex
    Member
    • Total Posts 3420

    I reckon the devil of racing should strike down (its probably due anyway) any coffin dodgers who drone on about Arkle whehever their medication runs out

    #151194
    seabird
    Participant
    • Total Posts 2924

    Clive, if you don’t die young, you will be a "coffin dodger" one day! :wink:

    Colin

    #151202
    Fist of Fury 2k8
    Member
    • Total Posts 2930

    I was a huge fan of Arkle and I still think Kauto Star is the best horse I have seen since.

    Another day another race who knows certainly wasn’t the Kauto Star I know who ran today. How much that was down to Denman we won’t know until they meet again….Clive smith said it wont be like that next time Ruby claimed Kauto just could get going and It just wasn’t his day………..

    That aside Denman has put up a brilliant display.

    He’s unbeaten in 9 chases is it?

    I would rate him as good as Mill House ever was and a better all round jumper. Arkle would have beaten Denman because he could lie up with him and had that extra gear but Denman would have given him a lot more to think about.

    He’s won a Hennessy with top weight albeit not the best of Hennessy’s and now he’s won the Gold Cup beating a horse that was hailed the worlds best steeple chaser………..billed as the best Gold Cup for 44 years ……Denman has won it and won it with style.

    He has got to be up there with the best of them…….If he can do it again I then I wouldnt be able to think of any horse bar Arkle who I would live with him….awesome horse.

    #151225
    graysonscolumn
    Participant
    • Total Posts 6965

    I reckon the devil of racing should strike down (its probably due anyway) any coffin dodgers who drone on about Arkle whehever their medication runs out

    I can’t disagree with that. There’s a distinct difference between being appreciating the history of the sport, and using one figure within it as a stick to beat any horse to put in a performance in excess of his or her immediate contemporaries.

    The performances of Denman, Inglis Drever and Master Minded will mean more to a lot of people on this forum (certainly many among the under 40s) than Arkle versus Mill House ever will – whilst the latter pair may have recorded the superior form ratings, the emotional attachment simply isn’t there.

    Be aware of your history, y’all, but don’t be in thrall to it to your own detriment.

    gc

    The patron saint of lower-grade fare. A gently critical friend of point-to-pointing. Kindness is a political act.

    #151237
    Gingertipster
    Participant
    • Total Posts 27800

    Oh dear Moehat think you might be asking for trouble here.

    Arkle was without doubt the best horse ever seen.

    But, those who compare racing 50 years ago miss one point.

    Racing then was far less competitive than it is now.

    Timeform do rate Arkle 212 and Kauto Star 184. But the way they rate horses is averaging the year out.

    And
    With the improvement of feed, training facilities and methods etc. If Arkle was transported together with the training methods, facilities and feed of the 1960’s. And Kauto had 2000’s training methods…… there would not be as much as 28 lbs difference between the two.

    Ginge

    value is everything
    #151242
    Gingertipster
    Participant
    • Total Posts 27800

    If I were the owner of Arkle or any other horse I would not have allowed him to run in the Grand National. In todays attitudes (not right word) the Grand National of the 1960’s was cruel. The race has changed out of all recognition these days, a totally different race.

    Go for it Harry!

    Am not knocking Arkle, as I said he is the best ever, but don’t think any comparison is a fair one. And if a comparison is made then things have to be pointed out to make it fair.

    Ginge

    value is everything
    #151252
    graysonscolumn
    Participant
    • Total Posts 6965

    If I were the owner of Arkle or any other horse I would not have allowed him to run in the Grand National. In todays attitudes (not right word) the Grand National of the 1960’s was cruel. The race has changed out of all recognition these days, a totally different race.

    Go for it Harry!

    For all his bluster, Harry Findlay’s belief in Denman strikes me as a little bit stronger than that accorded to even Arkle and Desert Orchid by their respective owners – certainly with regard to Aintree, anyway.

    I remember at the time that when pressed as to why Desert Orchid would never run in the Grand National, Richard Burridge’s exact words were, "He’d consider it a great lark, but we can’t take the risk".

    In fairness to him, I suppose, Dessie’s best years were around 1988-90; the course hadn’t been modified at the start of that time-frame, and the effectiveness of those modifications was still being proven in race conditions by the end of it. Even then, having feared they’d lost him once when he fell on his hurdling debut several years previously, I don’t think Burridge would ever have let Dessie take part in the National, even if the course had been made safer several years earlier.

    Back to Denman, though. Top-weight in the National would be a given for him, but then it will be in any handicap he ever takes part in for the foreseeable future (clashes with Master Minded being unlikely to happen). If anything, though, Phil Smith’s annual attempts at condensing the National weights could even result in the gelding being treated a few pounds more kindly than he would if attempting to win the Hennessy again.

    And we know he can certainly jump, gallop and lunk around big weights.

    I can certainly see the appeal of the idea.

    Jeremy
    (graysonscolumn)

    The patron saint of lower-grade fare. A gently critical friend of point-to-pointing. Kindness is a political act.

    #151268
    moehat
    Participant
    • Total Posts 7922

    I used to get annoyed at the comparison of Best Mate with Arkle, although in retrospect his three wins were an amazing achievement; the problem is that I do, in my coffin dodgeing way remember Arkle and Mill House, and when I woke up this morning my first thought was ‘hurrah, I’m still alive’ and my second thought was ‘today’s the day that I’m going to see a race comparable with 1964’; and I guess I feel deflated that it didn’t live up to my expectations, and therefore didn’t appreciate the race and the horses as much as I should have done…..

    #151280
    crizzy
    Participant
    • Total Posts 789

    I was a huge fan of Arkle and I still think Kauto Star is the best horse I have seen since.

    Another day another race who knows certainly wasn’t the Kauto Star I know who ran today. How much that was down to Denman we won’t know until they meet again….Clive smith said it wont be like that next time Ruby claimed Kauto just could get going and It just wasn’t his day………..

    That aside Denman has put up a brilliant display.

    He’s unbeaten in 9 chases is it?

    I would rate him as good as Mill House ever was and a better all round jumper. Arkle would have beaten Denman because he could lie up with him and had that extra gear but Denman would have given him a lot more
    to think about.
    Spot on.

    He’s won a Hennessy with top weight albeit not the best of Hennessy’s and now he’s won the Gold Cup beating a horse that was hailed the worlds best steeple chaser………..billed as the best Gold Cup for 44 years ……Denman has won it and won it with style.

    He has got to be up there with the best of them…….If he can do it again I then I wouldnt be able to think of any horse bar Arkle who I would live with him….awesome horse.

    #151282
    clivex
    Member
    • Total Posts 3420

    in my coffin dodgeing way remember Arkle and Mill House,

    and golden miller??

    :)

    #151283
    crizzy
    Participant
    • Total Posts 789

    Oops. Spot on FOF. Summed up so well.

    #151291
    moehat
    Participant
    • Total Posts 7922

    Golden Miller? not THAT old……..[although have just spent an hour looking for my ante post bets for national which I took out of my purse before Tuesdays trip to Cheltenham, so senility definately setting in!]

    #151308
    scallywag76
    Member
    • Total Posts 280

    Can’t agree Fist.

    You can make all the excuses you like but read Nicholl’s comments in the RP. Unless he was trying to put one over on punters, all was well with both horses and, in his words, "Denman had a mountain to climb".

    Well he’s climbed that mountain and however much it irks you, KS can never now be elevated to the status you’d like to accord him.

    #151313
    Gingertipster
    Participant
    • Total Posts 27800

    Can’t a horse run poorly once in a while without people shouting "oh he was not as good as people thought he was"

    Ginge.

    value is everything
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