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Well, here i go again…
Did anyone see the early stages of the King George? Did anyone see the early pace? Did anyone notice that Zindabad was right up with it?
That poor animal ran a superb race given that he had to race so fast early on! Zindabad won’t win a decent G1 in this country unless he improves, he was brave here and it seems harsh to call Golan and Nayef’s beating of him solid form because they didn’t have to do what he did early on.
Grandera’s won over 1m 3f, stamina was only a minor concern today and he was beaten along way out. I get the feeling he was on an off day but i tend to agree with the theory that the ground was a bit overwatered.
Anyway, i’m going to study the ratings for this race…Postmark will invariably go high for a G1. They usually do but i’m finding it hard to believe Zindabad ran to form…along with Grandera, Storming Home and Boreal.
Golan’s record first time speaks for itself, so does last year’s form. Granted, he’ll have improved but he’s already been exposed in G1’s, so has Nayef.
DM – i honestly can’t believe that Nayef is a G1 horse…a true one!! Golan might just make it (his Guineas form is terrible and he couldn’t get close to Galileo/Sakhee).
Isn’t it saying something that there are three horses ahead of Golan and Nayef in the Arc betting…High Chaparral, Sakhee and Sulamani. And where were the 3yo’s?
"It’s coming to something when the King George fails to attract a single three-year-old and is also swerved by connections of several of the best older horses in training." – RP analysis.
So where were they? The Eclipse was a walk for Hawk Wing, the King George didn’t have a single 3yo, all the Classics have been won by with Ballydoyle or Godolphin. I think this is a bit of a bad time…and trust me, i’m really pleased Golan won yesterday in terms of the domination thing, but much more so for the Weinstock’s, what a race it must have been for them to watch.
I know 99% of you will take issue with most of my comments (Nayef not being a true G1 horse for example) but i base most of what i say on form, ratings etc, proven tools.
Credit where credit is certainly due, what a finish Golan and Nayef put up for us. These horses do so much for us be them Group One horses or platers, they can thrill us, frustrate us, make us money, lose us money. Wonderful animals that deserve respect and admiration…the trainers and jockeys don’t do a bad job either.
Hi Rob, I’m one of the 99% who disagree with you here. You surely can’t claim that nearly every horse in the KG has not run it’s race……just because you don’t like the result!
It’s fair to say that some may not have run to form, maybe it was over-wated for Grandera, but the connections of Boreal & Aquaralliste are saying it was a bit quick? I’ll be rating the race via Zindabad & Storming Home, who are pretty consistant performers, I can’t think of any reason why they shouldn’t have run to form.
If that proves to be a correct judgement, both Golan and Nayef are, to your horror, G1 performers, maybe not quite up to Sakhee 2001 class, but genuine G1 performers all the same. Storming Home finished 9l behind Golan & Nayef in this years race, last year he got within 3l of Galileo & Fantastic Light. If you take that very literally, this race was better than last years? Probably a bit unfair, as SH was a very progressive 3yo last year & the KG probably came at the right time for him…..the point I’m getting at is that this KG is certainly not a bad one, & the time backs that up.
The highlight of this race has got to be the brilliant training performance of M.Stoute, & the performances of Golan & Nayef (Nayef btw has now run in six G1’s, has won 2 & been placed in 2 others, & finished 4th in another, if thats not consistant G1 form, I don’t know what is)
<br>
Boreal has not run anywhere near his Coronation form. I could go into great detail about Nayef’s G1 form but right now i won’t. Take a look at it…he beat Tobougg in the Champion stakes. He beat Boreal in Dubai (good ground was too quick for Boreal that day) and Boreal has since run to a higher mark.
Anyway, i look forward to a debate on this…as for not liking the result, i just felt that if Golan won it’d be a dissapointing renewal in terms of form, so i’m dissapointed in that respect. In terms of the emotial aspect of Golan’s win, i’m really pleased he won and it was a thrilling finish…but in terms of form, i’m dissapointed.
If you look back through a Nayef-Tobougg form line and Tobougg won the Dewhurst once beating Noverre and Mozart. Nayef was so hyped up as a 2yo and he has not done badly for one so hyped.
Form never seems spectacular at the time. I agree with the basis of what you are saying Robgomm, and we can’t be sure whether Golan will be as good last time.
One race that had not-brilliant form at the time could have been the 1995 Eclipse. Halling had not previously won a G1, Singspiel had come 4th in the Chester Vase two outings before that. Eltish was the beaten favourite in 4th although he had been a good 2yo. Look back now and we know Halling and Singspiel were true champions.
In a year’s time or maybe longer we can tell whether this years KG was vintage or moderate, but there is never a poor King George. Only what’s around and as the 3yos are not up to much it didn’t make too much difference that they werent there.
A fantastic training and riding performance from a brilliant horse , while unexpected but not a shock. You expect these type of occurences in horseracing and after doing my money i feel totaly gutted with the outcome,to all you moaners about G1 races being , predictable, not the quality of years gone by,try and enjoy a race of that calibre and congradulate all concrned without your bleating responses.
STE – I/we are debating not "bleating". There’s nothing wrong with discussing the form or outcome of a race and the reasons for beaten horses etc.
I thoroughly enjoyed this top class summer highlight.
This was the least predictable G1 so far this season for me. Grandera was fav but had a lot to prove.
I would suggest that Golan ran a similar race to that of his run in last year’s Derby. A line through Tobougg showed that there would be little between Nayef(Dubai Champion) and Golan(English Derby). But what impressed me was how much physically Golan has matured. He looked magnificent. I really do believe he can build on this especially with a little ease in the ground………….the Dubai Champion over 1m2f with cut in the ground would be ideal for him. Nayef is obviously better than I though but I think Golan by the end of the year will be a good bit better than yesterdays run.
Mesh i agree with your views entirley my statement was a bit vauge in it’s content , i enjoy many threads on future races but sometimes after the event i feel that the race analisis is good except when people start to diminish a horse’s performance with past results.At the end of the day different opinions is what makes this forum interesting and long may it continue.
I thought it was a fantastic performance from both Golan and Nayef. In my opinion both are true group 1 performers. Golan clearly goes well fresh as he displayed in the 2000 Guineas. He has always been a quality horse and does not get the recognition he deserves from some of you. He won the 2000 Guineas and came 3rd in a decent Derby, yet some still question if he’s ”true” grp 1 class. There were some very reliable form guides in the race such as Zindabad. The way the first two pulled clear of him demonstrates how good they are. At least this result provides variety on the group 1 scene now anyway. We now have Hawk Wing, High Chap, Golan, Nayef, Grandera?, Sakhee etc to look forward too. Bring on the Juddmonte……. Then we’ll see how good Hawk Wing actually is (exceptional ;) ).
Echo those sentiments Jam (erm, except perhaps Hawk Wing) :biggrin: ÂÂÂ
Also as a long standing member of the Golan fan club, should mention that although he was 3rd in a decent (Irish) Derby, he was also 2nd in a decent Epsom Derby… :)
I think the main target for him must be the Arc – as long as the ground is better than last years.
Quote: from robgomm on 11:22 am on July 28, 2002[br]Well, here i go again…
DM – i honestly can’t believe that Nayef is a G1 horse…a true one!! Golan might just make it (his Guineas form is terrible and he couldn’t get close to Galileo/Sakhee).
Come on, we are talking about the Timeform Champion Two Year Old 2000, the Champion Stakes Winner 2001, the Dubai Sheema Classic Winner 2002 and the 2nd of the King George 2002. And your opinion is that this horse is not a true Group I performer ?
What else is he? A horse that got lucky on several occasions. That can happen once….but here it happened several times. What else does this horse needs to do to be recognised as a true Group I performer?
13 Starts<br>7 Wins (2 Group I, 3 Group III Races)<br>5 times placed (second, third and fourth in a Group I)
an actual PM Rating of 131 please tell me what does this horse needs more to be recognised as a true Group I horse ?<br> :pimp:
<br>firstly an excellent piece of training by stoute and riding by fallon and a very good race to watch.
well done to all his connections
nayef a good horse trained by an excellent trainer his next race will be interersting and being by gulch should also act on dirt
for all the knockers of galileo last year a further confirmation of his derby form.
aquestelle i think she ran a good race her stamina may have run out (the course is far stiffer than longchamp). and of course she may have been trained with one eye on later events in the year which is french custom
mesh i await your reply to aiden where were your snoring emoticons ??????????????????
and now for the pathetics firstly dettori should be ashamed of himself how absolutly unsporting of him to come out with this drivel and crap about the ground and to try and belittle golan by saying becuase of the watering they ran the wrong horse what crap the ground had dried out since the time they had already decided it was to fast for sakhee and zindebad is a fast ground horse and he came 3rd.
the ground was not softer than at the ra meeting and also frankie wasnt one fo his best runs last year supposed to be at york against sakhee the ground there was g/s
what crap that grandera lost becuase he ran out of stamina
slipped and stumbled yeh right
he lost cos he werent good enough on the day
Snoring emotions????
Grandera did actually stumble a couple of times but you can’t say that lost him the race. I think it’s his temperment more than anything – if he wasn’t so good he’d be gelded!
131 is 1lb lower than last year’s King George winner Galileo. But Galileo has already beaten Golan by 3.5l’s and 8l’s! Yes, Golan’s improved but to the point where he could run Galileo to about half a length?
DM: We will never agree on this :)
Nayef, as a 2yo, looked high class…as he’s proven himself to be. Let’s skip his early 3yo career, it all went wrong there i think but plenty kept faith (connections and myself, yes, i’m actually a big fan of this horse!)
His three wins in G3 company are not really important in terms of form. He beat listed horses at best in differing conditions. He had no trouble going from the front and perhaps his best win was in the Cumberland Lodge, a brave beating of Sagittarius (who, for the record, has since finished second in the Ormonde stakes).
On to G1 win number one…
The Champion stakes. <br>PM said that Nayef didn’t even have to improve to win this G1…despite the fact he was "stepping up" 2 grades. But in all honesty, this was a poor G1. Tobougg has since been beaten in the Sventon stakes (listed race) by Highdown. He was a very good 2yo but he’s been inconsistent as a 3/4yo and has never reached the heights people thought he would reach (including myself), despite a good run in the Derby. Indian Creek…well, what do we make of him? G1 horse? No. He must have good to firm ground but ran above himself here on g/s. Using Hawkeye as a guide to Indian Creeks run would be fair i think…Hawkeye’s been beaten four times since, in Hong Kong G1’s (including 8l’s behind Grandera) and in a listed race at Sandown.
This Champion stakes was G1 in name only. It was a G3. So i’m not going to count this as a G1 if you don’t mind, because it was clearly not one.
So, on to Dubai, the Sheema Classic.
According to PM (normally a trustworthy source, although sometimes goes a little overboard) Nayef ran to a 121, 2lbs below his Champion stakes win. So that already casts a doubt over the form as actually being WORSE than the Champion stakes.
I actually don’t buy this, i’d call this Sheema Classic a G1 in name only, but a bit better than the Champion stakes. Helene Vitality (2nd) ran a huge race having been regularly stuffed in G1’s at Sha Tin. In no way am i buying that she could have finished 2l’s behind Nayef in the King George as she did here, and i’m sure you wouldn’t either.
3rd, Boreal. Now, here’s a piece of G1 form. He won the Coronation Cup since. But we can quickly see why he didn’t beat Nayef in Dubai. The ground was good. It is patently obvious to everyone that this horse must have soft ground. So Boreal couldn’t shine on good ground and anyway, he’s improved since and is clearly a better horse than he was in March.
Marienbard (4th). A GII winner since, making this form look better. He actually ran 5lbs below his GII winning form, making this run a little below par. He’d also run to a 118 (116 in Dubai) so it was obvious he didn’t quite run to his best. Nayef beat him 2.25 lengths, a good win.
I’m going to call the Sheema Classic a GII/GIII…it was a decent race, but not one i’d want to call a G1. ÂÂÂ
(Before anyone says, i’m aware that Marienbard won a G1 yesterday. But beating Yavana’s Pace by 1.25l’s doesn’t inspire me to call that G1 form either.)
Nayef then ran in the Tatts Gold Cup but i’ll forget that as he wasn’t right. He was sweating a bit and just didn’t seem right.
Then the Prince Of Wales. Again, below form, although had he run to his best he still would have finished around 3l’s behind Grandera.
Then the King George. And BANG he runs 8lb’s better (according to Postmark) than he’s ever run before. According to Postmark, Zindabad ran 1lb BETTER than his Hardwicke victory.
Ok, let’s take in a rather important person’s view on the race. Mark Johnston confessed to being a little "dissapointed" with Zindabad’s run. Why? Because they really felt he was up to standard.
But let’s not be hasty, look at the early part of the race. The jockeys all agreed that the pace was very fast. The pacemakers being beaten a distance behind BOREAL backs that up. They were beaten a long, long way. Boreal was in turn beaten 23l’s.
Zindabad’s been given credit for his run, but not the kind i think he deserves. I think he ran a superb race. Why? Because he went just off that early pace and ran very fast for a long way. It was clear that stamina and pure guts saw him to the line and in my view he’s one of the toughest Group horses currently in training. But<br>he ran below form and the same goes for Storming Home. So PM’s rating of 131? I find this incomprehensible (but then my reading of the form is different to there’s).
I’ve got no doubt Nayef’s improved to run 2nd here, but i do doubt him being able to finish 1/2 length behind Galileo over 1m4f, same goes for Golan. Aquarelliste beat Golan a length in last year’s Arc, this time she was beaten 5l’s, she didn’t run up to her best either, although she did run well. I agree with PR that her stamina gave out on the stiffer course.
<br>All i’m basing my writings on is what has happened on the racecourse. And i don’t see how Nayef’s G1 wins were up to standard.
Quick word about Golan, i do think he’s a good horse (so is Nayef) but i’m unconvinced about the form of his two G1 wins. Personally, i do think he could run very close in the Arc but he’ll have to improve. Nayef will too.
I could talk all day about form, i love reading it so much. I love ratings too and i think discussions like this are brilliant.
Oh, and Grandera, well, not sure what happened. They were kicking up the ground in parts of the race and the straight course was probably faster but, on thinking about it, Grandera just looked too hyped before the race.
One last thing (just to show you all that i’m not totally dim :) ) …I firmly believe Sakhee to be a true G1 horse ("thank god for that" i hear you say…)
<br> robbo
u seem a little harsh on golan , and from last years discussion i note you dont comment on his boost of galileos form.:) :)
no seriously there is one thing that i am thinking in terms of golan he has won three times on his debut and his only other win was when rested from the irish derby to the prix neil in september nearly 4 months so if he is so much better fresh where does he go direct to the arc (which is another big task to do) or do they risk running him in between
robgomm
Thanks for your long explanation about the Class of Nayef. I found them very interesting to read.<br>As well I can agree with you in some points you made, but I can not agree with all. ;)
A very interesting point is not only the very positive PM view about the race, Timeform speaks very positive about it as well:
The build up to the fifty-second running of Britain’s supreme all-aged middle-distance prize centered as much around those not taking part as it did about the 9 which eventually made the line-up; inevitably, with no 3-y-o (High Chaparral and Sulamani saved for autumn campaigns, Hawk Wing for York), the word substandard appeared in many pre-race reports and, with neither the leading older horse in training (Sakhee, along with High Pitched and Millenary, a morning defector due to the ground being considered too firm) or the cream of the classic crop in the field, the race obviously didn’t realise its objective of bringing the generations together; however, what’s for sure, is that those which ran provided the best-quality contest run in Europe so far this season, a Guineas winner/Derby second finishing clear with a Champion Stakes winner; with 2 pacemakers, the pace was sound and the finish a rousing one
And even the people who have not seen a real Group I performer in Nayef should (must) change their few after the Weekend. This was a great his best performance until know and he showed everyone that he is a real Group I horse.
And the Dubai Form is not so bad like it looks….. the trainer of Boreal (P. Schiergen) was very keen that Boreal can handle fast ground…..and still is. In his opinion Boreal had a day of and nobody knows why. So you shouldn’t underestimate the Dubai Form. And one more question to this race…..What more can a horse do than to win the race by an easy two length?
Here the Timeform opinion about Nayef
<br>NAYEF (USA), stepping back up in trip, ran probably his best ever-race, looking an assured winner when moving up smoothly to lead 2f out, battling on well despite drifting right under pressure; his rider came in for plenty of stick afterwards, but to go overboard on that score wouldn’t be right; inevitably, there has to be a second and, in any case, very few match Fallon in the finishing stakes; pleasingly, this colt was far more settled in the preliminaries than had been the case here last time; as he’s largely indifferent to the state of the going, he looks ideal Arc material, though his next race could reportedly be the Juddmonte International as he was said to have lost very little condition in this contest.
<br>:pimp:
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