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He got in a little bit close on a couple of occasions, but on the whole his jumping wasn’t too bad. To be honest I thought he got to the lead a little too soon, but he came away pretty effortlessly in the end. The only worry is the value of the form…
Only film apart from todays farce was him winning a 4k race at Ayr and that’s a far cry from the form of a horse like Binocular who finished second in 2 listed races in France.
It seems a lot of money for a horse who is obviously useful but clearly not a high class flat horse.
There are thousands of people who lose fortunes paying silly money on a wim and a prayer. I’m afraid the seller saying he just sold the triumph hurdle winner doesn’t make him a triumph hurdle horse.
If they thought he was, why has the stable not plunged on before the race?
340K and Hobbs runs him in a 1500 quid to the winner race against selling platers and so close to Cheltenham. That stinks of let’s keep the owner happy.
I’m sorry if I offend anyone who fancies the horse but I wouldn’t have 10 pence on him. If he runs in a decent race and wins I would be happy to change my mind IF HE LOOKS THE PART!!
He would have been as well jumping 8 hurdles at home for all it told them today
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They already know he can race they know he can jump and if they want to go to Cheltenham they better find a good race quick…I see Ladbrokes are still offering 25/1 about him which no doubt someone will take but god help them……..my guess is this horse, at this time, is no Cheltenham horse and the owner has a long wait to get her cash back.
You are right, FofF.
The fact that The Grey Berry is a better flat horse than Binocular is the bit you seem to be missing.
Looked to me like the owner had two other runners on the card, so it was probably so she/he could see them run on the same day.
The connections did lump on about 3 weeks ago, which was what first alerted me to the horse, having not seen this thread before, he was backed in to a general 25-1 (which is also where celestial halo was backed into prior to his debut, although on the day of his debut race he came into 20s and 16s), my suspicion from watching the betting, and looking at his choice of entry, is that there was a fair amount of confidence behind him at the turn of the year but that he may have met with a set-back since then.
If that is the case then they may have just wanted to get a run into him today, but to be fair he never even really looked to have had a race today and it would be no surprise to see him out again in better company quite soon.
I agree that he did not look as good as binoculars debut (but that was a very good debut), I wouldnt really say that the grey berry was a better flat horse than binocular, they were very similar but the grey berry was a consistent improver, where binocular flat form had peaks and troughs.
I suspected as soon as his entry was confirmed that today would tell us nothing, but if anything it has told us that he is in good health and his juvenile novice campaign has begun. Nevertheless there is still well enough time between now and cheltenham for him to improve into contention, and I look forward to seeing him out again in better company, but would rather he doesnt meet binocular or the other two of the top 3 in the triumph till cheltenham though.
Todays run wasnt the total of his capabilities and thought he looked on good terms with himself and I think there will be a good deal more to come…
Mate yesterday you accused me of ranting and asked some stupid question and tried to make me look like I am some sort of idiot. I answered you back with a sensible reply which made you look like the idiot to be frank.
Now you come on here and I am blustering. Then you come on and tell me TGB was a better flat horse than Binocular who only ran in 2 races in far away France before being snatched up by one of the best trainers in the world.
Prix Pelleas Stakes is the only race I could find and he was beaten by 3/4 of a length………a listed 52 Euro race that I would imagine was a better class of race than TGB ever ran in but I am guessing which was the better on the flat and so are you. We simply don’t have enough to go on to be making that kind of statement.
I don’t like to guess mate I study the horse like I did Sizing Europe before, saying he would win the Champion Hurdle weeks ago and well before you probably even know he was in the race. I am less convinced than the bookies seem to be but he’s certainly better than last years winner IMO.
Binocular is league above any novice I have seen this season…..he stands out like a sore thumb in my eyes, He jumped at Newbury like he had been doing it all his life and was quick into his hurdles and even quicker away from them……he wanted to race and needed not one bit of encouragement to do so. He just looks extra special to me and the Grey Berry has done nothing to convince me I am wrong.
Will he win the Triumph? I can’t answer that but he has a big future ahead of him…….all the Grey Berry has is some good flat form and a huge 340K price tag round his neck.
Personally I can’t wait to see him run against a decent horse and I hope he bolts in….the more good horses that go to Cheltenham the better, but bet him on a wing and a prayer…….no way!
I think his debut was sufficient to be honest, he was never going to win by a wide margin with the race run that slowly. As for it being a very modest race for his introduction, i think thats the way hobbs does it! It obviously wasnt for the prize money, more for the confidence, experience and a run.
Plus, look at the race hobbs ran Detroit city in for his introduction to hurdling!You made a direct comparison between The Grey Berry and Binocular on their flat form, FOF, so I find it difficult to understand how you can lambast Smithy for simply taking the opposite view. And whilst equating the pair’s exploits on the level is almost impossible, Topspeed and RPR figures suggest they were incredibly similar (and trying to use prize money as some sort of justification as to the quality of the races in which Bonocular ran, given that the races were held in different countries, is nonsense). My guess is that, based on your comments previously, had McManus paid 340,000gns for The Grey Berry (he’s not averse to wasting that sort of cash, just take a look at Garde Champetre), you’d be jumping up and down about him right about now. It’s a hollow point I know, but still…
I will brush over the fact that, yet again, you’ve managed to work a completely unrelated comment about a winner you’ve backed into a conversation, but how exactly would The Grey Berry’s performance today have any effect on your view that Binocular is ‘extra special’?
The Grey Berry has an extremely likeable attitude, improved with every run during the flat season and can find a change of gear when he needs to (the turn of foot he showed to win at Ayr after being hampered on the run in was superb). His performance today wasn’t perfect, not by any means, and the biggest worry for me is that he’s with Phillip Hobbs. But Hobbs does know what it takes to win a Triumph, and even finish second in one, so any market move could, conceivably, be seen as significant.
There’s no doubting Binocular has a touch of class about him, and that his flat form is decent, but there’s nothing to suggest he was any better than The Grey Berry. His debut was impressive, but as I’ve said before the form means very little with Metaphoric having run well below form and it’s difficult to see where improvement is going to come from on the jumping front.
But that’s just my opinion, and none of it based on my preconceived ideas about certain racing personalities (god forbid Binocular should have gone to Jonjo, or you’d be on the verge of getting really excited). I’m just keeping my fingers crossed that the two do actually meet at the Festival now, though how likely that is with Franchoek also in the running is anybody’s guess.
Too right Dave, I generally find that flat horses usually take a run or two to get up to their best if theyve had a break from the track and at their best on the flat binocular and TGB dont have a lot between them, arguably both just sitting either side of 10f.
What would worry most for both of them is franchoeks front running performance yesterday, I have not been a fan of franchoek all season, and where as I thought prerace that he looked to have a pretty easy race on the cards yesterday, I will hold my hands up and admit that the horse looks to have improved.
What would worry me most about franchoeks style of running is that he ran from the front at a pretty solid gallop which could possibly threaten to blunt the turn of foot of TGB and binocular and play to the strengths of Celestial Halo and Won In the Dark, especially if the ground comes up any worse than good, as although B and TGB will act on such conditions they are no means guaranteed to stay a rough gallop on bad ground.
Fingers crossed they will…
[quote="Fist of Fury 2k8"
340K and Hobbs runs him in a 1500 quid to the winner race against selling platers and so close to Cheltenham. That stinks of let’s keep the owner happy.
Keep the owner happy
It would break my heart to run in a race for £1500 if I’d paid 340,000 guineas for a horse, in fact I wouldn’t allow it.FoF,
Firstly you described him as being ‘hardly a model of consistency’ . That didn’t suggest you knew too much about him.
As LGR points out, Racing Post Ratings have 1lb difference between them, while Timeform rate his Ayr form as better than the small-field Listed second of Binocular.
Just out of interest, how much did JP McManus pay for Binocular? I wouldn’t have thought he was cheap, so to criticise The Grey Berry’s new connections for paying 340k is a bit unfair about a horse who could still develop into a high-class Flat performee if the hurdling plan doesn’t work out.
"yeats":1n4nmykc wrote:
Keep the owner happy
It would break my heart to run in a race for £1500 if I’d paid 340,000 guineas for a horse, in fact I wouldn’t allow it.I guess he ran in an easy race to brush up his jumping. Whilst safe enough today, he wasnt always totally fluent and a faster pace/better race may have caused significant problems.
340,000gns? Even if I had it, i’d still rather pay £5k for the second horse today.He didn’t exactly pay peanuts for Franchoek either who of course (if allowed to take his chance) will beat them all in the triumph.
His previous course experience should hold him in good stead for starters and I don’t think he’ll necessarily need soft ground.
But as I have 50’s for him I’m bound to be a bit biased aren’t I?For fans of the flat vs. flat form comparing hurdlers. Numide is surely a certainty for the Supreme Novices?
There are a couple of things that worry me about numide, although I really liked him on the flat and backed him on several occasions, he had little or no market support antepost prior to his debut run in a leicester class4. Was a negative in the betting that day for a stable which loves to back its horses, and I didnt think he looked close to his best, but his class got him through it.
All that pointed to him not doing much at home despite being a classy animal on the flat. Then you look at the fact that he was pulled out of the khyber kim race on saturday and that he’s down to run in another class4 at folkestone on tuesday, it doesnt suggest that much improvement has been made. Another point to note is that since his debut he has still had next to no real market support in the supreme novice market.
I would love to see him doing better and hope he does, can’t be enthusiastic at the minute though. If he wins by twenty lengths going away on tuesday, which really he should do if back to his best, then we’ll know better.
If memory serves you availed yourself of a similar price about Detroit City, didn’t you GD?
Sounds like an omen to me…excuse while I go and lump on
40’s before he ran over hurdles LGR although there was a bit of 50’s after his debut at Warwick.
Ironically Franchoek was 40’s before his debut at Market Rasen but just before I was going to place my bet he was backed into 28’s so I didn’t bother.
After that defeat he went 50’s and I backed him on the morning of his first Chepstow win.
It’s a race I like to try and find something from the flat to have a bet in and with Spectroscope in recent years also I’ve been very lucky.
Let’s hope that’s the case with Franchoek also.
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