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Surprisinglly it still does often throw out the best 3 year old of its generation and its highly thought of as a producer of top sires, which is what the St Leger isnt. St leger winners are often more thought of as future national hunt sires.
SHL
Shouldn’t you be studying tomorrow’s cards at Exeter & Kelso?:biggrin:
On a more serious note, all of the "Classics" are vastly overrated. The winner of the Derby hasn’t won another race for nigh on 15 years or something like that.
They’re great for seeing which 3yo have trained on but the real Flat championship is the all-aged middle-distance (8-12f) Gr1 races. That sorts the men out from the boys.
Quote: from davidbrady on 3:01 pm on May 8, 2006[br]The winner of the Derby hasn’t won another race for nigh on 15 years or something like that
<br>Did I dream High Chaparral twice winning the Breeders Cup Turf?
I presume you are talking complete s**t
e deliberately….<br>Didn’t High Chapperal win 2 Breeders Cups after the Derby and don’t Epsom winners follow up in Ireland fairly often?I forgot about High Chaparral (and Galileo & Sinndar). But anyway, the last 10 years:
2005 Motivator – 0 wins from 3 runs after winning the Derby<br>2004 North Light – 0/3<br>2003 Kris Kin – 0/3<br>2002 High Chapparal – 5/7 (was VERY lucky to have gotten the run of the race in all 4 subsequent Gr1 wins:biggrin:)<br>2001 Galileo – 2/4 (both Gr1 wins)<br>2000 Sinndar – 3/3 (2 Gr1 wins)<br>1999 Oath  – 0/1<br>1998 High Rise – 1/9<br>1997 Benny The Dip – 0/3<br>1996 Shaamit – 0/3
Notwithstanding my obvious stupidity, to have only 4 subsequent winners is a pretty poor return for a Gr1 race, never mind a "classic" (and Benny The Dip’s other win was a Lst race).<br>If the Derby wasn’t a classic, it would have been downgraded to Gr2 at this stage!
Don’t think it’s fair to use Oath for comparison in this regard David, he was badly injured in the King George so effectively didn’t race after his Derby win.
Grasshopper, I see what you’re getting at. You get an occasional brilliant Derby winner a la High Chaparral, Galileo and Sinndar, but often the horse turns out to be a flop thereafter. I think it’s because the horse is trained specifically for that target, and has very little to give thereafter.
Still the greatest race in the World to test the breed for me and the one every jockey and trainer wants to win. Race is in the doldrums at present and the fact that 2yos run later and later in that season, if at all, now makes early June come around too soon for as many of the stars to take part, as happened in the past.
The prohibative entry fees and timing hinder it from being any kind of championship event.My suggestion would be to take a cut on the prizemoney for the time being,make it a 16 runner limit, have an initial entry fee of around £1500 and pay the supplementary fee say £25000 down to eighth place.On top of that make it a race for which you have to qualify by earning points in an extensive list of preliminary races.It will take a little time to weigh the value of the traditional lead ups but the race needs to be democratized both financially and in terms of its composition as thereare far too many other options nowadays.
Flat oval tracks or ‘across the flat’ at Newmarket may be deemed fairer tests of a horse as none can have the excuse of not acting on them but the contours and cambers of Epsom provide a great test of a young horse’s atheticism and balance, as well as jockeyship. The ‘complete’ racehorse should be able to adapt and show it’s form under a variety of circumstances in my opinion.
I would agree that Epsom should be a one-off test for 3yos prior to the acid test of their mettle and ability taking on their elders in the all-aged ‘championships’ on conventional tracks later in the season; but the Derby and Oaks remain a valuable education and above all a terrific spectacle.
Cheltenham and Sandown have their idiosyncrasies but I doubt any NH follower would say that championship events shouldn’t be run there.
Fine card at Kelso tomorrow Grasshopper; my heart is there; my head at Chester and York.
Looking back to last year’s Arc.
6 were 3yos. Of those 6, 2 were from the UK – Scorpion and Motivator. The other 4 were trained in France, with 2 being pacemakers, along with Shawanda and Hurricane Run.
Of the other 9, 4 were trained in the UK – Mubtaker, Norse Dancer, Cherry Mix and Warrsan.
I wouldn’t say it’s the distance factor, although the 10f division in the UK was far stronger, but many horses missed the race due to injury or the ground don’t forget. Azamour, Electrocutionist. The Geezer ran the day before.
I think the lack of 1m 4f competition is down to it being too early in the season. The introduction of the Breeders Cup and World Cup has taken some of the shine off the Derby I think. Personally, I’d much rather win either the World Cup or BC Turf, regardless of the prize fund.
Yes, I would. Having a 4yo beating some other absolutely brilliant horses would be so much more fulfilling than winning an Epsom Derby with the only stayer of the race beating a load of top class milers or 10f horses.
Yeah, I agree you can’t move it back. Although I find it strange that both French horses beat the English horses (fair to say that Shawanda should have beaten Motivator into 5th at the VERY LEAST), when they all raced on the same weekend and Motivator would have loved the ground. I think it just shows the standards of French and English middle-distance racing.
2 were from the UK – Scorpion and Motivator.
Scorpion is from Ireland, not the UK.
What’s the problem with the Derby?
I think that, in 3 of the last 4 years, it was won by the best 12f horse in the race.
What we have seen, however, is that in each of 2003, 2004 and 2005, by far the best 3yo 12f horse in Europe was trained in France.
However, none of these horses ran at Epsom. They ran in their own country instead.
But that’s just 3 years, the 3 years before that had good Derby winners.
And we’ll see top class Derby winners in the future.
The last 3 years, Aiden O’Brian’s middle distance 3yo’s have been moderate, that’s not going to last forever.
And Godolphin haven’t produced a Derby contender in that time. Sure;y, they’ll have a proper Derby horse someday.
And, with the Jockey Club cut in distance, well probably see some top French horses coming over.
I predict the Derby will rise again!
(though the Jockey club will surely be the European classic when it comes to producing great horses)
Steve
Ah you know what I mean about Scorpion.
Speaking of Godolphin, just been looking through the entires, they have some excellent chances this season I feel. Achill Bay, Ashaawes, EMIRATES SKYLINE, Rampallion and Shariki.
Emirates Skyline stands out for me as by far the best, with Rampallion as my next chance.
I think Fire and Rain could be the overlooked O’Brien horse this year. Won a very good Maiden first time out, although could go for the Irish Derby, as he has only raced the once and would be difficult for him to get the extra experience while staying fresh for Epsom.
The others I like are – Art Deco, Futun, Heliostatic, Horatio, Sir Percy and Visindar. (Don’t really like Visindar that much, but seeing as he’s favourite…)
Quote: from Drone on 10:33 pm on May 8, 2006[br]Flat oval tracks or ‘across the flat’ at Newmarket may be deemed fairer tests of a horse as none can have the excuse of not acting on them but the contours and cambers of Epsom provide a great test of a young horse’s atheticism and balance, as well as jockeyship. The ‘complete’ racehorse should be able to adapt and show it’s form under a variety of circumstances in my opinion.
I would agree that Epsom should be a one-off test for 3yos prior to the acid test of their mettle and ability taking on their elders in the all-aged ‘championships’ on conventional tracks later in the season; but the Derby and Oaks remain a  valuable education and above all a terrific spectacle.
Cheltenham and Sandown have their idiosyncrasies but I doubt any NH follower would say that championship events shouldn’t be run there.
Fine card at Kelso tomorrow Grasshopper; my heart is there; my head at Chester and York.<br>
Could not have put it better myself Drone, excellent post.
JohnJ.
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