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Of course there is something to suggest they could have got closer to Frankel. They all achieved higher ratings than Excelebration over a mile. In particular Goldikova’s 2009 victory in the Jacques le Marois is 8lbs better than any effort that Excelebration has produced in victory or defeat.
Comparing horses of vastly differing generations is too inexact to be definitive. The fact remains that Excelebration would not have been champion miler in 2008, 2009 or 2010 on what he has achieved this year or last.Well a 6L deafeat of Aqlaam is better than Excelebration has achieved. Is this the same Aqlaam that beat Confront(never won above G3) 0.5L in his previous start, next start beaten by Famous Name, not won a G1 in 37 races, only subsequent start beaten 14.5L by Rip. Is this really better form than beating Immortal Verse (conqueror of Goldikova on her previous start) 3.5L.
Allowing Goldikova to be 5lb inferior in 2011 to 2009, Excels QEII form is still better than what you claim to be Goldikova’s best.
I reiterate, Excelebration suffers from comparison to the greatest ever. Goldikova 2011, 2010, 2009 would have absolutely no chance whatsoever against Frankel over any distance. The destruction of Canford Cliffs shows what Frankel does and its to Excelebration’s credit that he’s gotten a close as he has on a few occasions.
I fully expect Excelebration to confirm himself as the 2nd best miler around on Saturday with another G1 success.
The Goldikova-Excelebration comparison in terms of pure ability has some merit. Excelebration’s record without Frankel is stunning but beating Cityscape, Side Glance, Rio de la Plata, and Dubawi Gold by 2-3 lengths isn’t strong a level of form (Immortal Verse has shown herself to be either very inconsistent or not good so should probably be ignored for Dubawi Gold).
As for Goldikova, Paco Boy obviously got close to her a few times. The horses she beat aren’t extraordinary. But perhaps she was feeling her age towards the end of her career, and she also stretched out to 9 furlongs to beat Byword and Cirrus Des Aigles (whose form is tricky to rate).
I doubt the likes of Makfi and Rip Van Winkle were better than Excelebration but I’m not sure. Makfi’s 2 good runs were beating Dick Turpin (Canford Cliffs was immature/unsettled at the time) and Goldikova on ground that didn’t suit her. Rip’s form is tricky to read. He was purely a fast ground horse which explains his QEII and Irish Champion losses, and I think he was over-the-top when unimpressively beating Zacinto by 1.5 lengths.
To get back to the race itself it strikes me punters are faced with either leaving the race alone or each-way Cirrus Des Aigles. Given the likely ground conditions is it worth guessing at 1/5 that Frankel will cope well enough to win. Personally, I don’t think so. I think if he gets his ideal conditions the second favourite is the better option. Very hard to see him out of the three and at 4/1 even if Frankel does overcome conditions you are talking a relatively small loss as opposed to a big one if you side with the favourite. Of the others Nathaniel will probably run his race and come up short again while although Ridasiyna was impressive last time and may be the best of the 3-y-o fillies this would represent a huge step forward. I don’t believe Pastorius is good enough but he should prove best of the rest.
We all fall into that trap of thinking so and so isn’t that good when Frankel kicks them aside but what a horse Exelebrartion would have been without him around.
He may well have been rated around the Brigadiers mark
as without Frankel he may well have been going for his 13th consecutive win on Saturday. Imagine the write ups he’d be getting and how highly Timeform would have rated him had Frankel not existed.
A bit of a rant to get to the point that I agree Dancing Brave was no where near as good as Frankel only Secretariat and Sea-Bird can be mentioned in the same breath
Excelebration rated around the same as BG, you must be having a laugh. He’d have been left trailing in his wake and been just as tried at staring at his backside disappearing into the distance as he has been of Frankel’s.
Frankel is a fantastic racehorse but people do need to keep some perspective. I never saw Sea Bird race but there is no doubt in my mind the likes of DB, Mill Reef and BG can be comfortably mentioned in the same breath as Frankel.
Yep, but you seem to be missing HGD’s point. If indeed there was no Frankel and Excelebration had gone on to win 13 consecutive, most of which would have been G1s in HGD’s hypothetical example(actually Zoffany did finish ahead of him in in the ST James Palace), then the reality is he would have been regarded as one of the all-time great milers and indeed wouldn’t have been rated that far off Brigadier Gerard. Now, I don’t think he would have won 13 on the trot, but he still would have earned an incredible collection of G1 wins, and there’s absolutely no way anyone would have entertained the idea of a multiple consecutive Group 1s winner finishing miles behind any other previous miler. The only reason you can consider such a possibility is because of what Frankel did to him. That’s the main issue when rating the opposition against something as exceptional as Frankel. If Goldikova was always coming up against Zarkava and finishing second to her constantly as she did in the French 1000 Guineas and Oaks, then no way would she have been regarded as one of the all-time great mares as she is today. Yet, she would have been the same horse all the way through.
You hit the nail right on the head I wonder sometimes if people actually read entire posts or just grab a sentence and go for the jugular
I doubt if Exclebration would have had taking all those seconds if Frankel hadn’t been around as it was him who scared the opposition away not Excelebration.A lot of rating Timeform give horses are down to pure luck and they will even bend there own rules to cover the booboo’s they make now and then.
People tend to accept what they say as gospel but it is only an opinion. A good opinion yes but when I look back at some of their rating for Hurdlers which is my fav racing I cringe. I was a massive Persian War fan he could do nothing wrong in my book and was the first big bet I ever had but when Bula came along he was an amazing hurdler who could win from anywhere and up until recently held the record for wins that big Buck’s now holds.
Timeform rated him the same as Birds Nest who was runner up more times than Mike Tyson in his latter years. He got that rating because of the company he was keeping Night Nurse 182 etc but Bula in my opinion would have beaten any of them and Birds Nest wouldn’t have saw the way he went. Then you have Monksfield on the same rating as Istabraq….geesuz says me Monksfield? He struggled to beat Sea Pigeon who I loved to bits but Istabraq was unreal…..he unlike Sea Pigeon would have gone past Monksfield like he was a tree and despite me thinking overall Bula is the best I’ve seen I doubt if even he would have beaten Istabraq.
That’s just my opinion thousands would agree thousands wouldn’t have.
I certainly don’t think Excel would have got anywhere near Brigadier Gerard and the only thing that makes me think Frankel is better than the Brigadier was is his ability to absolutely explode into action not even the Brigadier could have coped with that.
Is he better than Sea-Bird? Sorry that one stops me in my tracks….It is very very hard trying to imagine anything mowing down the silk machine as I used to call him because he moved like silk….you don’t get the same affect on these old videos that you did back then watching him. He was the prefect racehorse and when he took off it was like he was still hack cantering he did it without and visible evidence other than the distance getting bigger between him and those behind.
He hasn’t been the top rated Timeform horse for all these years for nothing he had true greatness.
Somehow Timeform stuck some figures together and made Frankel the highest rated horse of all time but is he really the best we have ever seen in Europe? Let’s just say racing needed a new Champion and Frankel is the only horse they could have put forward as as good as Sea-Bird without being laughed at.
If there were another I would agree Mill Reef deserves consideration. For me despite the Guineas Mill Reef was afar more exciting and IMO a better horse than BG.
As far as Saturday goes the ground will need to open up and swallow Frankel for anything to get near him…..other than an act of God or he breaks down or something there’s no way will he will lose even if the ground is bog deep.
Yep, but you seem to be missing HGD’s point. If indeed there was no Frankel and Excelebration had gone on to win 13 consecutive, most of which would have been G1s in HGD’s hypothetical example(actually Zoffany did finish ahead of him in in the ST James Palace), then the reality is he would have been regarded as one of the all-time great milers and indeed wouldn’t have been rated that far off Brigadier Gerard. Now, I don’t think he would have won 13 on the trot, but he still would have earned an incredible collection of G1 wins, and there’s absolutely no way anyone would have entertained the idea of a multiple consecutive Group 1s winner finishing miles behind any other previous miler. The only reason you can consider such a possibility is because of what Frankel did to him. That’s the main issue when rating the opposition against something as exceptional as Frankel.
I’m not missing it as it isn’t a point worth giving much credence to as if you take out any really great racehorse then all the others look better than they actually are and in the case of the Brigadier that would also apply to Mill Reef. Having taken such a horse out you can’t just increase the rating of the other horses he beat so they are then much better. As I said to even consider Excelebration, who is a top class miler, is rated anywhere near Brigadier Gerard is a joke.
Hurdy, I think I will now treat most of what you say with a large pinch of salt.
You seem to change your mind more often than your forum name.
Persian War used to be the one, now it’s Bula ?
Mill Reef now, not Briagadier Gerard. Pfft !
As for Excelebration- he wouldn’t have got close to Kris, let alone The Brigadier.
I think all those hot, muggy, Bangkok evenings and the local alcohol has muddled your brain, auld yin.
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Let’s just say racing needed a new Champion and Frankel is the only horse they could have put forward as as good as Sea-Bird without being laughed at.
For me despite the Guineas Mill Reef was afar more exciting and IMO a better horse than BG.
I’d hardly say comparing horses rated a few pounds below Sea Bird is reason to laugh at such horses and they include Ribot who many consider was superior to Sea Bird. If so you should be laughing at comparing Frankel with Sea Bird as he is still on official ratings behind Dancing Brave let alone Sea Bird.
I saw them both race and it was a sight to see as they were both exceptional horses. There are only two things imo in which Mill Reef was superior to Brigadier Gerard at, one was a distance of 12f and the other was his action which literally glided over the ground. Over 8f he simply couldn’t cope with the Brigadier and nor would he have over 10f. Sadly Mill Reef was not the same horse as a 4yo and was withdrawn from all his enagagements after the Coronation Cup including the Eclipse and King George and injury forced his retirement in August before he could attempt the double in the Arc.
I’m guilty of believing Frankel to be probably the greatest flat race horse of all time, but I have no evidence other than historical to suggest that any of the previous greats were lesser horses. The biggest clue to me is in watching replays of these various horses. Visually I don’t think any horse compares to him.
I’ve also listened a fair bit to the views of old hands in the town. Virtually to a man they have told me for instance that your namesake would not have lived with Frankel, but of course that’s always going to be a subjective matter. My brother-in-law is an ex work rider who once rode a winner at Chester. (I think.) He has the credentials to know one horse from another and he is adamant that BG wasn’t as good.
Please don’t take these comments provocatively. They are not intended in that manner. I’m just pointing out what a few people have told me. I wasn’t old enough to remember the great BG myself, so I can’t call it personally.
You are entitled to your opinion but for me the best horse I ever saw race was Brigadier Gerard.
Btw I’m a big fan of Frankel which is why I went to see him run in the Lockinge at Newbury which is my closest course and I wish him all the very best for Saturday.
Hurdy, I think I will now treat most of what you say with a large pinch of salt.
You seem to change your mind more often than your forum name.
Persian War used to be the one, now it’s Bula ?
Mill Reef now, not Briagadier Gerard. Pfft !
As for Excelebration- he wouldn’t have got close to Kris, let alone The Brigadier.
I think all those hot, muggy, Bangkok evenings and the local alcohol has muddled your brain, auld yin.
High "H" haven’t seen much of you lately maybe I have been looking in the wrong place.
Now let’s get this straight Persian War was my first real love as a kid but I have never ever ever said he was better than Bula who I have said dozens of times on here was the best I ever saw along with Istabraq. You on the otherhand are anIght Nurse man correct??? You got that Denny Crane mad cow disease I reckon
It’s turned out Sir henry did the right thing not sending him to France. As Kris Diesis points out there’s nothing specialabout this years race apart from the fact it might be run in a bog. Perish the thought of Frankel running his final race in conditions like they will face tomorrow if the get heavy rain tonight.
If Nathaniel were to turn up in this and Frankel beats him hands down no one will give the Arc a second thought.
Plus if Sir Henry is well enough to be there and Frankel puts up another startling performance the sound of the cheers Sir Henry will get will travel all the way to Paris anyway.
Viva la AscotI don’t know how true it is but I spoke to one of Sir Henry’s old hands this evening in the town and he seems to think the trainer will call it a day after Frankel’s final race. He reckons Sir Henry has assembled his entire family to be at Ascot, according to him Noel and Katie and even his ex wife Julie are going to be there with him.
I say I don’t know how true because Sir Henry recently said in an interview that he had no intention of retiring.
Well I’ll tell you this much Sir Henry will not retire because he has the best reason in the world to stay on board. If all goes well on Saturday and Frankel shows he’s as good as ever on the expected ground he will stay in training and you can take that to the bank. It will be the Prince’s present to Sir Henry to thank him for all the success he has brought HRH at least that’s the rumour going around at the moment
it’s sad to say but I doubt sir henry has long left.
as for frankel, if it comes up very soft at ascot it’ll be an interesting battle against the french horse, that’s for sure.
None of us know and I doubt if anyone outside of his family will know which stage he is at.
We should not be surmising anything and stick to the racing and leave the opinions about his health to the medical experts.
I honestly don’t think the french horse could get him out of a canter E I’d be more worried about Nathaniel nicking 2nd off them than Frankel if I were the French.
Apart from the ground being a tiny concern there is nothing the French horse has done that would suggest he’s capable of doing anything else other than watching Frankel wave bye bye when Tom says go.
Heavy in places on the round course. It will be tragic if he doesn’t run.
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If it is heavy Joni, then may be it’s best if Frankel doesn’t run. Fluent, long stride and turn of foot won’t be anywhere near as effective on it. Then there’s the added stamina test in the ground, if acting on the surface it could still be more like a 1m4f race than 1m2f. Will need to settle at least as well as at York.
All I hope is Ascot don’t say it is "soft" when in practice it is heavy. If they do it’s going to be difficult for them to pull him out.
As a betting medium it’s been ruined by only 6 runners, but who cares about betting with a horse like this?
Pull Frankel out and keep him in training at 5.
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