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The article is complete nonsense.
The Champions isn’t even the top meeting at Ascot and this guy is trying to say it’s some sort of threat to the most prestigious race in the world namely the Prix de l’Arc de Triomphe
Illogical. It doesn’t have to be the best meeting at the venue for a particular race within that "inferior meeting" to be better than a particular race at a different venue not related to either.
This is like saying the King George can’t be better than the Hardwicke simply because the surrounding meeting is weaker. You aren’t one for logic HGM.
Ok the meeting moved but moving it isn’t going to change much and a quick glance at recent results we have Danedream Workforce Sea the Stars, Zarkava etc etc winning the Arc and nothing would have you jumping out of your seat like they did, that won the Champion Stakes recently.
The Champion stakes under it’s new guise is one year old. Your cross comparing data that cannot have total credibility.
This plonker thought Frankel and that gave him premise to write the article but it should have been given the heading
Franke V Prix de l’Arc de Triomphe
because without him what has the Champion Stakes got to offer…..not a lot and it would be less than nothing had nathaniel not taken ill before the Arc.
The very fact the race is run over 10 furlongs will prevent it ever be regarded in the same league as the Arc plus the Arc is worth over a million pounds more to the winner than the Champion Stakes. So unless Ascot are going to put their hands very deep into their pockets (no Chance) nothing is going to change.
I agree on the prize money front.
I agree on the prize money front.
Except it’s Qipco stumping up the cash. And those boys have deep pockets!!!
"this perfect mix of poetry and destruction, this glory of rhythm, power and majesty: the undisputed champion of the world!!!"
I agree on the prize money front.
Except it’s Qipco stumping up the cash. And those boys have deep pockets!!!
I meant i agree with the sentiment that the current prize money disparity won’t help the quest for equality. Whether Qipco will add more capital, i do not know.
I do not understand what you are implying with Snow Fairy and Nathaniel. I do not believe Snow Fairy and Nathaniel having the Arc as their main target is proof that the Arc is more prestigious ; one needs much more data than that. Of course, however, that data exists. I was merely pointing out the flaw in the use of Snow Fairy/Nathaniel running in thw Champion stakes as an indicator of near equality. I take it you are trying to twist my words.
No, not "trying to twist your words" J17. Just a small point: You are using the fact Snow Fairy and Nathaniel’s connections favoured the Arc over the Champion as a tick in favour of the Arc. Yet one of the main reasons for Snow Fairy and Nathaniel going for the Arc was Frankel. Yet we’re seemingly not allowed to use Frankel as a tick for the Champion because he’s an "anomaly".
Value Is EverythingThe article is complete nonsense.
The Champions isn’t even the top meeting at Ascot and this guy is trying to say it’s some sort of threat to the most prestigious race in the world namely the Prix de l’Arc de Triomphe
Ok the meeting moved but moving it isn’t going to change much and a quick glance at recent results we have Danedream Workforce Sea the Stars, Zarkava etc etc winning the Arc and nothing would have you jumping out of your seat like they did, that won the Champion Stakes recently.
This plonker thought Frankel and that gave him premise to write the article but it should have been given the heading
Franke V Prix de l’Arc de Triomphe
because without him what has the Champion Stakes got to offer…..not a lot and it would be less than nothing had nathaniel not taken ill before the Arc.
The very fact the race is run over 10 furlongs will prevent it ever be regarded in the same league as the Arc plus the Arc is worth over a million pounds more to the winner than the Champion Stakes. So unless Ascot are going to put their hands very deep into their pockets (no Chance) nothing is going to change.
Yep.
if the Ascot Champion Stakes can maintain its elevation from
obscurity
…
Well of all the adjectives I’d have used about a G1 race won by some of the best horses around that’d be the last one.
An exaggeration Brigadier, but in my opinion the Newmarket race was on the downgrade.
Value Is EverythingAn exaggeration Brigadier, but in my opinion the Newmarket race was on the downgrade.
Well let’s have a look at the winners of the race over recent years and their ratings when they won the race as it doesn’t strike me the stats support your view.
Ascot
2011 Cirrus Des Aigles 125
Newmarket
2010 Twice Over 125
2009 Twice Over 119
2008 New Approach 125
2007 Literato 120
2006 Pride (don’t have an OR but was second in the Arc that year and went on to win G1 Hong Kong Cup)
2005 David Junior 115
2004 Haafhd 122
2003 Rakti 121
2002 Storming Home 116
2001 Nayef 119
2000 Kalanisi 125If a trainer was to plan an Autumn campaign for his older horses and it was to include the BC then the Arc is better placed for such a campaign.If one goes for the Champion Stakes both races would probably be ruled out.Put I suppose I am stating the obvious.
The flat racing landscape is changing gents and I think its time we all got used to it. I love tradition but sometimes change can be for the best. The Breeders Cup meeting and the Arc are no longer the must win events they once were. Champions day has and will continue to make a huge difference to the flat racing scene and the Champion Stakes (if it already hasn’t) will become the most prestigious race in Europe.
1m4f just isn’t fashionable anymore, breeders want 1m2f horses.
The flat racing landscape is changing gents and I think its time we all got used to it. I love tradition but sometimes change can be for the best….
Champions day has and will continue to make a huge difference to the flat racing scene and the Champion Stakes (if it already hasn’t) will become the most prestigious race in Europe.1m4f just isn’t fashionable anymore, breeders want 1m2f horses.
…amazing the number of people who seem to favour such a change… and resign themselves to it…
I blame the Frankelistas, of whom there are many…. if he was winning over 12f no one would be talking this way…
The flat racing landscape is changing gents and I think its time we all got used to it. I love tradition but sometimes change can be for the best….
Champions day has and will continue to make a huge difference to the flat racing scene and the Champion Stakes (if it already hasn’t) will become the most prestigious race in Europe.1m4f just isn’t fashionable anymore, breeders want 1m2f horses.
…amazing the number of people who seem to favour such a change… and resign themselves to it…
I blame the Frankelistas, of whom there are many…. if he was winning over 12f no one would be talking this way…
I dont think that is true. I think for quite a few years now breeders have been targetting ten furlong horses. The Irish Champion has grown in significance now the English one is doing the same. I think its great for British racing, as a Brit I think its fantastic that WE now have a meeting that showcases the sport rather than America or France.
As was pointed out some months ago, a quick look at the leading sire statistics shows that High Chaparral in 14th place is the highest of those stallions with a group 1 victory at 10 furlongs. 10 furlongs may be fashionable for racehorses but it has yet to be translated into the breeding statistics.
When they start flocking to England at the end of the year to prove the quality of their horses we will know that the Champions day has arrived.Meanwhile….
The Champion Stakes has suffered because of its proximity in the racing calendar to the Arc and Breeders Cup but last years and this years are very strong renewals. With the hike in prize money for the Champion and the supporting races, Champions Day will become a viable alternative to the Breeders Cup. OK the prize money is still way off BC purses but still very serious money.
I see Champions Day becoming a kind of European Breeders Cup with the Europeans turning away from the doped horses running on an alien surface around an athletics track that is the Breeders Cup.
An exaggeration Brigadier, but in my opinion the Newmarket race was on the downgrade.
Well let’s have a look at the winners of the race over recent years and their ratings when they won the race as it doesn’t strike me the stats support your view.
Ascot
2011 Cirrus Des Aigles 125
Newmarket
2010 Twice Over 125
2009 Twice Over 119
2008 New Approach 125
2007 Literato 120
2006 Pride (don’t have an OR but was second in the Arc that year and went on to win G1 Hong Kong Cup)
2005 David Junior 115
2004 Haafhd 122
2003 Rakti 121
2002 Storming Home 116
2001 Nayef 119
2000 Kalanisi 125Brigadier,
I’ve looked back at the Timeform Annual ("Racehorses Of ….") ratings of all winners. It’s possible some of those ratings weren’t put up in the Champion, but should be fairly accurate. My collection goes back to 1984. So from 1984 to the last Newmarket Champion edition is 27 years. Best to divide in to 3 periods of 9 years. Have also added the 3 lbs allowance to fillies.It is obviously possible the first period between 1984 and 1992 (inclusive) was unusual, it would be nice to know the figures from 1975 to 1983, but…
1984 to 1992 had an average of 131.77.
1993 to 2001 had an average of 128.66.
2002 to 2010 an average of 128.0.In my opinion since 1998 (inclusive) Alborada’s first win, the
average
standard had slipped, with (judged by Timeform Annual ratings) Kalanisi, Pride and New Approach exceptions.
The over all quality of last year’s race and the winner’s rating of 133, and Frankel running this year together with last year’s winner is encouraging.
Value Is Everything
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