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So why do you think he is as good as Black Caviar? The world’s best sprinters come from Australia.Do the world’s best milers come from the UK?
Gingertipster
Sun Oct 07, 2012 1:25 am
People who keep criticising connections of Frankel quite frankly haven’t got a clue KD.They come in two camps…
Those who’s minds are severely limited to believing those racing at 1m4f must be the best racehorses; and that every horse needs to run at 1m4f to "prove" its ability.
And/or
Those who couldn’t get a handle on how good Frankel was in the early years… and don’t want to admit they were wrong.
And those in both camps.
well given I was one of the first people to point out frankels freakish ability on the betfair forum (after his win in a doncaster conditions race on his second start) I hardly think I fall into that category.
So many people think they were "one of the first to point out Frankel’s ability" that in practice not many can be "one of the first.
No i’m just dissapointed. apart from his 2000 guineas win, and his sussex stakes win over canford cliffs, i think i’m right in saying he’s been long odds on for pretty much every race he’s run in since his three year old career.
EGS,
Frankel starts at "long odds on because he’s so much better than any other horse. Rated by Timeform a stone better than any other horse in the northern hemisphere. Even started at 1/10 when upped to 1m2f in the International. So going for races like the Prince Of Wales would’ve made no difference to Frankel’s price/SP.I think when it was obvious that he was totally dominant at a mile and was just beating up on every horse at that distance by a long way (no fault of the horse of course) then they could have stepped him up in distance and taken on new challenges.
what was the point in running him in the queen anne stakes, for instance, when he’d already thrashed excelebration a number of times already? why not step him up to 10 furlongs then, and take on so you think?
So You Think was going to stud immediately afterwards. So you think So You Think would have turned up to be slaughtered by Frankel? Had Frankel gone to the Prince Of Wales he’d have frightened off many rivals.
Please take a look at all Frankel’s races on Youtube. Most racing people who know what they’re looking at – can see the progress made to Frankel’s temperament. ie His freeness gets less and less noticeable. Frankel would probably have won the Prince Of Wales had he gone there, but connections wanted one or two more run at a mile, to make sure Frankel relaxed enough in his races to stay 1m2f at York. The International is sponsered by Frankel’s owner and the racing manager is Chairman at York. So can you blame them for trying to ensure Frankel was not going to be too free at the Knavesmire?
I don’t know if stepping him up to a mile and half would have been the right thing to do. if they were going to do that they should have run him in the derby, it looks as if they have done the right thing by swerving the arc. run on soft ground and you couldn’t see frankel getting home in a horse box.
Only an idiot would have run Frankel in the Derby after being so free in the Guineas.
but i’m just slighty dissapointed by his career path, but maybe its more to do with not having anything around at a mile that could test him.
Those racing against him at a mile (Excelebration and Canford Cliffs) are rated just as good (if not better) than any potential rival at 1m2f (Cirrus Des Aigles) or 1m4f (Danedream, Orfevre, Nathaniel).
That "career path" (doing what’s right for the horse’s future) made a considerable contribution to Frankel’s amazing ability. Do you wish you hadn’t seen a horse of his brilliant ability EGS?
Can you remember immediately after the 2000 Guineas Channel 4’s Jim McGrath saying (words to the effect of) if Frankel has to win like that, it will be to the detriment of his future career. Sir Henry and his team have done an exceptional job and deserve all the accolades going, instead of this bxxxsxxt from people who don’t understand racing.
Value Is EverythingCan we please now have a thread about the Champion Stakes, and not moaning about what race he should/should’ve be/been in.
Value Is EverythingWOW. i know that was nothing more than an excercise gallop after the withdrawal of the godolphin horse but this is the best two year i’ve seen for quite a while. after all if a horse went like that on the gallops we’d all be rushing down the bookies to back it! races with so much enthusiam, travels oh so well, and seems to have unbelievable gears.
of course cecil will take the softly softly approach with him he’s done the same thing for 30 odd years he’s hardly going to change it now, but if he did decide to go the dewhurst/ guineas route instead of the more obvious racing post/ derby route i know which horse i’d be backing.
it seems just as likely of course that he won’t run him again this year.
^thats what i wrote on the betfair forum after frankels romp in a condiitons race at doncaster. but of course noone could have predicted that frankel would have gone on to be the horse that he is.
I didn’t doubt you said those things EGS, I merely pointed out so many people did the same that it is difficult to establish who were "one of the first".
For example, what about those who thought Frankel was a top class horse in the making immediately after his Newmarket maiden win? Compared to them you were not "one of the first".
Value Is Everythingnot that many were calling him a champion after his doncaster run though, and still less after his newmarket run (unless you had connections with the yard) it was only after his brilliant royal lodge win that the general public jumped on the bandwagon.
If this forum is any guide to to that then you are very wrong. I never saw Frankel the day he beat Nathaiel but had seen Saamidd and was singing his praises until Frankel ran at Doncaster the day before Saamidd ran at the same meeting.
When Frankel won that day I can remember distinctly thinking wtf was that and saying no way would Saamidd beat him.
Even before Saamiddd won the next day the debate began and within days Frankel was by the majority of posters being hailed as something out of the ordinary.
When he won the Royal Lodge he was already being hailed as a something way out of the ordinary all that race did was reconfirm it.
The biggest friendly battle I ever had on here ensued when Timeform rated both Frankel and Dream Ahead 126 if memory serves me well with their infamous P’s. I insisted they were 10lbs wrong and Frankel should be rated 136 or some crazy rating like that and that was well before the Dewhurst. The walls of this forum were on fire with support for Frankel.
I think it was a horse called Prolific Champion that finished 4th they cited as having held up the races form which I said was nonsense and they were ignoring the fact that the horses he beat into second Strong Suit never went a yard in the ground and the 3rd Approve’s claim to fame was winning a poor looking Gimcrack and was also a horse who needed good ground to be seen at his best.
I claim no credit for being a huge fan since way back then because In my 4 or 5 years posting on here no horse has come anywhere near to getting the amount of compliments thrown at him from so many different posters . It must have been 90 for and 10 against and TAPK was 6 of them
No doubt about it Frankel was a star in the eyes of many from the first day his name was posted on this forum.
Someone has tweeted saying Orfevre might stay for the Champion Stakes which would be a lot more interesting than watching him kick that horse with the funny Circus name into touch……Orferve is without a doubt as good as Nathaniel and Danedream and maybe even better. I reckon he’d have won the Arc by about 4 lengths if the ground had been good today so I hope he does stay and we get decent ground at Ascot..
nobody could predict that he would turn out to be as good as he was after two runs though. anyone claiming so would have had to have inside knowledge from the yard. you can’t possibly predict after two runs in two non-group races (granted he beat nathaniel in the first, but who knew at that stage that horse would turn out to be so good as well?)that he would go on to be an outstanding champion.
really it was the ascot run that marked him out, the arazi like burst around the home bend. but you see promising two year olds every year and at least 90 percent of them don’t fulfill their potential.
in any case I was just trying to prove that I was not one of these people who was anti-frankel early in his career. i’m just slightly dissapointed that his connections haven’t been more ambitious with his programme, and i stand by that. then again on the plus side at least prince khalid kept him in training as a four year old, which is more than the ballydoyle lot would have done.
As for the champ stakes itself, I would imagine the only way he’ll get beat is if it comes up bottomless. in which case they’ll probably pull him out and retire him on the spot. the french horse, tough and consistent as he is, is not remotely in the same league as frankel.
btw what do people think of dawn approach? frankel like potential?
if the japanese horse runs in the race, that would be the best horse frankel has taken on in his whole career, and would be a mouthwatering clash. come on ascot make it happen
The french horse, tough and consistent as he is, is not remotely in the same league as frankel.
True, Cirrus is not in the same league as Frankel EGS, but he’s still the equal second best horse in the northern hemisphere. Better than anything that ran in the Arc.
Value Is Everythingis he? I wasn’t aware of that. but still i think the japanese horse has more of that brilliance, that might be able to unsettle frankel. I can’t see cirrus having any real weapon to worry the cecil horse. he’s tough and consistent, but for me he lacks that wow factor. a bit like excelebration?
the dazzling turn of foot of the japanese horse on the other hand, might be able to get frankel out of his comfort zone. but i think he’s very unlikely to run in any case, and if he did, it’s hardly an ideal preparation for taking on the beast, the tough race he surely had there.
Cirrus Des Aigles is truly one of the very best horses I’ve seen on heavy ground. He’s already a very good horse on good ground, but he seems to improve by lengths when it gets heavier. While I don’t fancy him to trouble Frankel on good ground, if ever we get sticky conditions on the day, well you just never know.
But sure Frankel might be better still on the heavy ground.Has he been tried on it?
He won on soft in his very soft race doesn’t bother him one bit.
The french horse, tough and consistent as he is, is not remotely in the same league as frankel.
True, Cirrus is not in the same league as Frankel EGS, but he’s still the equal second best horse in the northern hemisphere. Better than anything that ran in the Arc.
If you work for Timeform he is but that doesn’t make it so.
Based mainly on his Champion Stakes win but had Snow fairy got a clear run he wouldn’t have beaten her that day IMO and Danedream has achieved much more than he ever has. Nathaniel ran but he’s not the bay he was before and if he turns up at Ascot I reckon he’ll finish in front Cirrus Des Aigles.
In my very humble opinion if he met Orferve the Japanese horse would eat him for breakfast. Travels as well as him and would murder him for toe.
DELETED this paragrapgh GELDINGS CANT RUN IN THE ARC FORGOT
Europe is in bad shape if he’s the best we have bar Frankel he’s had more 2nd prizes that Mike Tyson
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